Team competition at Sochi

[centerpt1]

So- a country could have one of thier qualified pair teams skate the short, and another team skate the free? As long as they were identified after the short?

It doesn't make sense to have the team competition first. It would seenm to give unfair advantage/disadvantage to those participating in the team event.

[pingu]

What's Ondrej Hotarek's status? I know there are other Italian pair teams, but I prefer Berton/Hotarek...

He has the italian citizenship

[Domshabfan]

So according to the idiotic system ISU has devised a team that wins Short program has a better chance winning the whole thing since number of teams in the Free skate section reduces to 5 teams as supposed to 10 in the short P/D section.

So using the 2011 world championships results.
countries Ladies Mens I/D Pairs total
US 8 5 10 5 28
Russia 9 8 7 8 32
Japan 10* 9 4 7 30
Germany 5 4 5 9 23
Canada 4 10 9 6 29
China 3 2 3 10 18
Italy 7 3 6 4 20
France 6 7 8 1 22
Great Britain 2 1 2 2 7
Czech Republic 1 6 1 3 11

Czech had no ladies athlete at the last world championships, and Tran has magically received citizenship to compete for Japan in my list.

So Russia, Japan, Canada, USA and Germany move to the Free section.

Russia 32 9 8 8 9 66
Japan 30 10 9 6 6 61
Canada 29 6 10 9 7 61
USA 28 8 7 10 8 61
Germany 23 7 6 7 10 53

So Apart from the tie breaker thing coming into play, a skater can make a complete mess in the FD/ FS and still get 6 points by finishing bottom of the pile, say 60 points behind the leader in the section, the difference between the first and last is 4 points. This could still be enough for them to win the title. Whole thing looks like a Short Dance/ program competition. It is tilted towards the results of that section, if an athlete make a mess and finishes last the difference here is 9 points. So for the SP it is all about staking team in between you and your major competitor, and once FS starts some of these teams may disappear altogether.

ISU is inviting trouble with this format, especially since we get the score of these teams and anyone can total the whole segments score displayed and come up an aggregate score of all 8 sections of the team. Then again, when did weightage of both SP and LP become equal in terms of points. Even during the 6.0 era there was difference in weightage of these sectionals. So if a team wins, say ladies section in total points that does not count towards the total score. So final placement in ladies, Mens, Dance and pairs is of little importance.

I think either ISU should allow all the teams to compete in the free dance/ Free skate of the team championships or use cumulative scoring system, count all the sectional scores like did in Japan Open. So add all the SD and SP scores, then find the best 5 teams and then reduce the size of teams to 5 for the LP. Then add the total LP scores to the SP scores.

[Domshabfan]

So- a country could have one of thier qualified pair teams skate the short, and another team skate the free? As long as they were identified after the short?

It doesn't make sense to have the team competition first. It would seenm to give unfair advantage/disadvantage to those participating in the team event.

As long as this team is also qualified to the Olympics games by normal qualification mechanism. A team can make two substitution for the FS/FD, they can change both singles skaters, both couples (Ice dance and pair) or a couple and single's skater.

As for sec on point i think they are getting an additional chance of winning a medal, which is huge. Even though now skating fans are not taking team title with huge importance. However the medal won is still an Olympic medal. Which could make your life is most countries.

[casken]

I hate hate hate that this takes place before the individual events.

Just wait for some favorite, or favorites, to skate brilliantly in the team event but then blow it when it comes time for the solo OGM.

The whole team event will either be moved back or completely scrapped when, not if, that happens.

[fan]

I hate hate hate that this takes place before the individual events.

Just wait for some favorite, or favorites, to skate brilliantly in the team event but then blow it when it comes time for the solo OGM.

The whole team event will either be moved back or completely scrapped when, not if, that happens.

Ditto. If they're going to do it at all, which i'm not a fan of, they should move it back behind the individual events (which these skaters have been preparing for all of their lives!)

[miffy]

No, they are allowed to enter an additional team in the event they have not qualified but the team can compete only in the team event and not in the individual event.


Rules are very clear on this, the team is also allowed to bring an additional team, but they cannot be staying at the village.

Many thanks for the explanation, I think that is good news

[Jenna]

I hate hate hate that this takes place before the individual events.

Just wait for some favorite, or favorites, to skate brilliantly in the team event but then blow it when it comes time for the solo OGM.

The whole team event will either be moved back or completely scrapped when, not if, that happens.

Actually, the team event will provide skaters with an opportunity to compete on the Olympic ice surface, without the pressure of it being their individual event. These skaters could have the advantage, to be honest!

[johndockley92]

I wish that the skaters in this event could not compete in other divisions (IE; Patrick Chan would not enter the team event because he'd be in the singles event, Canada would send a different male skater to represent them in the team event). This would make it so that countries with deeper fields of skaters get rewarded more and hopefully make it so that countries like Japan spend more time developing dance and pairs skaters. I also feel that this would allow more skaters to become involved and become a part of the Olympic experience.

[manhn]

I wish that the skaters in this event could not compete in other divisions (IE; Patrick Chan would not enter the team event because he'd be in the singles event, Canada would send a different male skater to represent them in the team event).

So, the 4th ranked Russian pair or the 4th ranked Japanese male would be in the team event? So, the 4th ranked Russian pair can win a gold medal, but not Kavaguti/Smirnov? Fantastic! What a fun event!

Actually, the team event will provide skaters with an opportunity to compete on the Olympic ice surface, without the pressure of it being their individual event. These skaters could have the advantage, to be honest!

No pressure? Someone like Phaneuf or Czisny (assuming they make the team) would have a lot more pressure in the team event than the individual event.

[julieann]

So, the 4th ranked Russian pair or the 4th ranked Japanese male would be in the team event? So, the 4th ranked Russian pair can win a gold medal, but not Kavaguti/Smirnov? Fantastic! What a fun event!

No pressure? Someone like Phaneuf or Czisny (assuming they make the team) would have a lot more pressure in the team event than the individual event.

Not to put down the top ranked skaters but I doubt they wouldn't want the opportunity to get a chance to win two gold medals if they had the chance. For instance: Patrick Chan wouldn't want to sit out the team event to conserve his energy and give his spot to a lower ranked skater just to see if he could win won later. What if he messes up and goes home with nothing? I doubt he would risk it, I doubt any skater would risk it.

My guess it is if any of the skaters have the opportunity to skate any win ANY color medal...they will.

[BigB08822]

So what if someone like Rachael Flatt has a gold medal because of the team event? It doesn't make her a better skater than Michelle Kwan or an equal skater to Yu Na Kim. That is absurd. Is Amanda Borden (gymnast) as good as Nadia just because she has a team gold medal? NO! Borden never medaled individually or even competed in the AA on the World or Olympic stage. People will have to use logic and look at skater's accomplishments. A team gold medal will not be the same as an individual gold medal.

Gymnastics always has the team event first. Partly as qualifying for the other events but also as a good warm up and introduction to the apparatus for the athletes. The team event will allow the skaters to get a feel for the ice, arena, cameras, crowd, etc. If an athlete skates lights out during the team and blows it during the individual competition that is their own fault. If they do a perfect practice run through and then blow it during the event is it somehow the organizers fault for holding that practice when they did? These athletes are in peak shape and should be able to do perfect routines during all run throughs, multiple times a day. Those that can't are going to have a harder time winning.

[Skate Talker]

So why don't they weight the Free Programs double the placement points of the short programs to make the Free worth 2/3 as is more normal. For example winning free scores 20 points, 2nd 18, etc. That would eliminate the scenario where blowing the free still leads to a win, wouldn't it?

[skipaway]

I've read the thread, but help me out here...if a team ie..Japan, doesn't have a qualifying pairs team, then how can they be in the team competition? Sorry, my head is about to explode...i'm so confused

[l'etoile]

Another thanks from me to you Domshabfan for the explanation!

What I'm wondering is, how about other Olympic sports that have team competition? Do they have team events after individual events or vice versa?
I think skaters should be able to show their A game in individual events and consider it as their priority. But I do like the idea of team events

[kwanfan1818]

I've read the thread, but help me out here...if a team ie..Japan, doesn't have a qualifying pairs team, then how can they be in the team competition? Sorry, my head is about to explode...i'm so confused

Yes, a country can choose to compete in three out of four disciplines.

See upthread for Domshabfan's breakdown of last year's Worlds for how Japan is a likely medal contender with three entries.

[Celine82]

Yes, a country can choose to compete in three out of four disciplines.

See upthread for Domshabfan's breakdown of last year's Worlds for how Japan is a likely medal contender with three entries.

But that includes a pair. Without the pair, they might make it to the free, but I doubt they could beat any of Russia, Canada or the US with only 3 entries in the LP because they'd have at least 7 points (4th and worst place for any of the 4 other countries in the pairs LP) to make up with their man, lady and ice dancers.

The way I understand it, though, Takahashi/Tran's results will count toward qualifying Japan for the Olympic Team Event.

As for the Team Event being before the single events, among the pros and cons, I just want to point out that Kozuka and Brezina had to go through the qualifying round at Worlds last year. Look how things turned out for them in the "real" LP after their "extra practice"...

[Vagabond]

Yes, a country can choose to compete in three out of four disciplines.

See upthread for Domshabfan's breakdown of last year's Worlds for how Japan is a likely medal contender with three entries.

Without an Olympic-eligible pair of the caliber of Takahashi & Tran, Japan probably isn't a medal contender.

So according to the idiotic system ISU has devised a team that wins Short program has a better chance winning the whole thing since number of teams in the Free skate section reduces to 5 teams as supposed to 10 in the short P/D section.

So using the 2011 world championships results.
countries Ladies Mens I/D Pairs total
US 8 5 10 5 28
Russia 9 8 7 8 32
Japan 10* 9 4 7 30
Germany 5 4 5 9 23
Canada 4 10 9 6 29
China 3 2 3 10 18
Italy 7 3 6 4 20
France 6 7 8 1 22
Great Britain 2 1 2 2 7
Czech Republic 1 6 1 3 11

Czech had no ladies athlete at the last world championships, and Tran has magically received citizenship to compete for Japan in my list.

So Russia, Japan, Canada, USA and Germany move to the Free section.

Russia 32 9 8 8 9 66
Japan 30 10 9 6 6 61
Canada 29 6 10 9 7 61
USA 28 8 7 10 8 61
Germany 23 7 6 7 10 53

If you give Japan one point instead of seven in the first round, it leaves them behind Germany and France, and well back of Russia, Canada, and the U.S.

Even if you assume Japan somehow makes to the second round, they would still finish still far behind the top three on points.

Russia, Canada, and the U.S. are the three clear favorites for the medals.

[kwanfan1818]

According to Domshabfan's tally, there would be a difference of three points using the Reeds' placement instead of Takahashi/Tran's, and that would be only three points off Canada and the US for bronze.

Obviously, if the FS is weighted higher, then Japan won't have a chance with three of four disciplines.

I don't think anyone will catch Russia, and it's possible the US will gain a point or two, but ice is slippery, and I can't imagine Japan not sending a team because they are down a pair.

[Celine82]

What does the Reeds's placement have to do with Takahashi/Tran's "non-placement"?

If you simply remove the pair from Domshabfan's calculations, you get:

So using the 2011 world championships results.
countries Ladies Mens I/D Pairs total
Japan 10* 9 4 23

Japan still advances to the LP (same score as Germany, above France) but then:

Japan 23 10 9 6 48

So they're clearly last of the five.

(Canada and the US would also each get an extra point as their pairs would be one rank higher in the SP.)