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  1. #81
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    Excellent news about Korobeinikova!
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    Martiusheva/Rogonov aren't any better than Stolbova/Klimov, nationals proved that.
    Did you watch the nationals at all? Because if you did, I really don't understand how you can write this! Nationals did not prove anything. A lot of people who watched it think that Martiusheva-Rogonov were robbed, and especially on second mark. I think it wasn't really anything personal against them, but that it was politics - they have been so frequently inconsistent in the last few years that the judges held back so that they can't be alternates to Europeans. On one side I understand why, but it certainly hasn't been fair towards them.

  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    Did you watch the nationals at all? Because if you did, I really don't understand how you can write this! Nationals did not prove anything. A lot of people who watched it think that Martiusheva-Rogonov were robbed, and especially on second mark. I think it wasn't really anything personal against them, but that it was politics - they have been so frequently inconsistent in the last few years that the judges held back so that they can't be alternates to Europeans. On one side I understand why, but it certainly hasn't been fair towards them.
    Of course it was...

    and yes, I watched but I also wasn't so enamored by M/R performance that I would think they are better so much better than S/K. I think people were so shocked and happy Martiusheva didn't land on her ass that they were willing to give the pair more credit than they were due. Don't forget, in the absence of the top two pair everyone would have been bumped down two places, so really they would have been in 5th not 3rd.

    Have M/R done well this year? Absolutely, they won the Golden Spin of Zagreb in front of Gierok/Just and Montalbano/Krasnopolski. They also won the Warsaw Cup in front of Bakirova/Kamianchuk who were the only other competitors. Not exactly they toughest competitions for them but they won nevertheless with ok scores.

    Stolbova and Klimov got 4th and 7th during the grand prix, not exactly their best showing but she was also ill and they had much tougher competition, the top pairs in the world.

    All the teams going into Russian nationals knew full and well if V/T or K/S were not healed in time to go to the EC whoever got second would be going (maybe even third) so doing their best was crucial.

    It just so happened one team was better in the short and one team was better in the free and S/K came out ahead - by 2.19 points. There was no robbing unless your favorite didn't win

    S/K rightly deserved 2nd as much as M/R deserved 3rd over Gerboldt and Enbert. It was rotten luck on Smirnov's part that he got an appendicitis and had to withdrawal and now S/K get the chance to go, good for them.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    they have been so frequently inconsistent in the last few years that the judges held back so that they can't be alternates to Europeans. On one side I understand why, but it certainly hasn't been fair towards them.
    From a political viewpoint, I don't see why this matters: whoever is Russia #3 isn't likely to be one of the top two scores used to determine placements for next year.

    From a developmental point of view, they might not want to send M/R to a major championship until they've shown more consistency, since a bad performance might hurt their confidence long-term, and, by comparison, S/K come off of an excellent Juniors record and have solid results for a new senior team at GP.

    I think the Russian Fed should have made that decision regardless of which was one place ahead of the other.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    From a political viewpoint, I don't see why this matters: whoever is Russia #3 isn't likely to be one of the top two scores used to determine placements for next year.

    From a developmental point of view, they might not want to send M/R to a major championship until they've shown more consistency, since a bad performance might hurt their confidence long-term, and, by comparison, S/K come off of an excellent Juniors record and have solid results for a new senior team at GP.

    I think the Russian Fed should have made that decision regardless of which was one place ahead of the other.
    Am I the only one who would prefer to see G/E at Euros? As soon as they get the twist, sort the sal and impove ice coverege, they will be world medalists. I hope they are patient.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poths View Post
    Am I the only one who would prefer to see G/E at Euros? As soon as they get the twist, sort the sal and impove ice coverege, they will be world medalists. I hope they are patient.
    I don't know, I was kind of disappointed with G/E this season. They stagnated or even got worse than last season.


    I am actually excited to see Stolbova/Klimov. I like their style and they have some really interesting ideas.

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    Stolbova/Klimov
    the voids! VOIDS!

  8. #88
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    I think G/E should take Eislauffan's suggestion and compete for Germany.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by poths View Post
    Am I the only one who would prefer to see G/E at Euros? As soon as they get the twist, sort the sal and impove ice coverege, they will be world medalists. I hope they are patient.
    Yes. Basically you are saying they can do the lifts.... ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hedwig View Post
    I don't know, I was kind of disappointed with G/E this season. They stagnated or even got worse than last season.


    I am actually excited to see Stolbova/Klimov. I like their style and they have some really interesting ideas.
    ITA and since none of Moskvina's skaters excell at the twist including K/S, that's unlikely to develop. There are too many young pairs coming up that by the time V/T, K/S and B/L stop competiting, they'll be passed by.

    And, I find S/K oddly entertaining especially since we know she is quite capable giving a Skary Babs stare. Of course, if my partner dropped me twice in a competiton, I'd be giving him more than the Evil Eye.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    I think G/E should take Eislauffan's suggestion and compete for Germany.
    So do I. They have a shot at going to the Olympics if they did this. It's very unlikely if they stay in Russia. S/S assure 3 spots, but there's nobody to fill them. G/E would have an excellent opportunity to do so.
    Adelina Sotnikova defeated the curse of Esta She is indeed the Greatest Of All Time!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hedwig View Post
    I don't know, I was kind of disappointed with G/E this season. They stagnated or even got worse than last season.


    I am actually excited to see Stolbova/Klimov. I like their style and they have some really interesting ideas.
    Hopefully it's just the Sophomore blues for them this season because when they're on the ice it's just so worthy.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by poths View Post
    Am I the only one who would prefer to see G/E at Euros? As soon as they get the twist, sort the sal and impove ice coverege, they will be world medalists. I hope they are patient.
    With all their shakiness this season where would they place? And do they need the place they would get on Euros if they go?

    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    I think G/E should take Eislauffan's suggestion and compete for Germany.
    What for? To become #3 in the team? With the good work they will be able to become #3 here next season. I doubt that Hausch/Wende and S/S will ever be willing to let them become #2 or #1.

    And after all - here they have a competition while in Germany they won't have it. Sure it's motivating enough to skate on the same rink with S/S, but what they can really hope to achieve in Germany is to outscore Hausch/Wende, if they are lucky enough.

  13. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarFarAway View Post
    With all their shakiness this season where would they place? And do they need the place they would get on Euros if they go?



    What for? To become #3 in the team? With the good work they will be able to become #3 here next season. I doubt that Hausch/Wende and S/S will ever be willing to let them become #2 or #1.

    And after all - here they have a competition while in Germany they won't have it. Sure it's motivating enough to skate on the same rink with S/S, but what they can really hope to achieve in Germany is to outscore Hausch/Wende, if they are lucky enough.
    I don't think Haush/Wende are that good to beat G/E. They could still beat them with the performance at the nationals, after all the Russians did beat them at the last europeans.

    Switching countries is not an option if they want to compete as a team. They will have to sit out at least 2 years before they ca compete for Germany. After the Olympics K/S and B/L both will retire so they have one of 3 spots to fight for.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    I think G/E should take Eislauffan's suggestion and compete for Germany.
    I am for this too
    they are both German-russians and will have more opportunity
    and get more exposure from International judges

    besides, the russian pairs group is too crowded for them
    even without the top pairs they still will have to battle stolbova/klimov, martiusheva/rogonov and
    there are many upcoming juniors,like in a few years seniors eligible davankova/deputat

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    Quote Originally Posted by Domshabfan View Post
    I don't think Haush/Wende are that good to beat G/E. They could still beat them with the performance at the nationals, after all the Russians did beat them at the last europeans.

    Switching countries is not an option if they want to compete as a team. They will have to sit out at least 2 years before they ca compete for Germany. After the Olympics K/S and B/L both will retire so they have one of 3 spots to fight for.
    I doubt B/L will retire. But I agree Germany it's not an option.

  16. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    Martiusheva/Rogonov aren't any better than Stolbova/Klimov, nationals proved that.

    The withdrawal of V/T and K/S gave both teams medals they wouldn't have got otherwise and with K/S withdrawing from Europeans Stolbova/Klimov are given an opportunity they wouldn't have got normally so hopefully they will enjoy it. I doubt they will get past the Italians.
    I disagree that M&R aren't any better than S&K. There is a huge difference in the overall quality of skating. I find S&K simply awful in terms of their postures, lines (completely absent), while M&R are gorgeous. However, M&R have had a long history of meltdowns on tech elements. I think the RSF may have been hesitant to put them in the #2 spot for the Euros. S&K had a terrible GP season too, but apparently the fed feels a bit more comfortable about sending them to Euros. The jury is still out on M&R, IMO. They will need to prove themselves next season in the GPs. I hope they will.

    Based on how the two pairs skated at nationals, I think M&R (even with a few mistakes) should have beaten S&K, but the judges may have held them down a bit due to their history (it shouldn't be that way, but that's what happens in FS), and also about putting them in a pressure situation like going to Euros this early.

  17. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Excellent news about Korobeinikova!
    I am really happy for her. I hope she skates well at Euros and finishes in top 10 at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    I disagree that M&R aren't any better than S&K. There is a huge difference in the overall quality of skating. I find S&K simply awful in terms of their postures, lines (completely absent), while M&R are gorgeous. However, M&R have had a long history of meltdowns on tech elements. I think the RSF may have been hesitant to put them in the #2 spot for the Euros. S&K had a terrible GP season too, but apparently the fed feels a bit more comfortable about sending them to Euros. The jury is still out on M&R, IMO. They will need to prove themselves next season in the GPs. I hope they will.

    Based on how the two pairs skated at nationals, I think M&R (even with a few mistakes) should have beaten S&K, but the judges may have held them down a bit due to their history (it shouldn't be that way, but that's what happens in FS), and also about putting them in a pressure situation like going to Euros this early.
    I doubt if the judges are into holding people down in regards to going to Europeans; if that were true in 2011 they would have sent I/M who were 5th instead of G/E who were 4th. They knew whoever got 4th would be the team who went to Europeans and they felt fine sending a new team with one 4th place at Cup of Russia over a team who won Skate Canada and who beat B/L at the GPF. But they sent who got the highest place at nationals because they knew no matter who they sent they would have got 4th place.

    G/E had no history and I/M did but they sent G/E anyway even though I/M were the only team of the two who could have feasibly got 3rd place over B/L because they did it a month before the GPF. But it’s how you perform in the nationals that seems to matter and when it’s a difference of only 2.19 as it was with M/R and S/K, I doubt the feds care who they send. At that point it’s a matter of if your favorites won or not.

  19. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    I disagree that M&R aren't any better than S&K. There is a huge difference in the overall quality of skating. I find S&K simply awful in terms of their postures, lines (completely absent), while M&R are gorgeous. However, M&R have had a long history of meltdowns on tech elements. I think the RSF may have been hesitant to put them in the #2 spot for the Euros. S&K had a terrible GP season too, but apparently the fed feels a bit more comfortable about sending them to Euros. The jury is still out on M&R, IMO. They will need to prove themselves next season in the GPs. I hope they will.

    Based on how the two pairs skated at nationals, I think M&R (even with a few mistakes) should have beaten S&K, but the judges may have held them down a bit due to their history (it shouldn't be that way, but that's what happens in FS), and also about putting them in a pressure situation like going to Euros this early.
    Exactly!

  20. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    I doubt if the judges are into holding people down in regards to going to Europeans; if that were true in 2011 they would have sent I/M who were 5th instead of G/E who were 4th. They knew whoever got 4th would be the team who went to Europeans and they felt fine sending a new team with one 4th place at Cup of Russia over a team who won Skate Canada and who beat B/L at the GPF. But they sent who got the highest place at nationals because they knew no matter who they sent they would have got 4th place.

    G/E had no history and I/M did but they sent G/E anyway even though I/M were the only team of the two who could have feasibly got 3rd place over B/L because they did it a month before the GPF. But it’s how you perform in the nationals that seems to matter and when it’s a difference of only 2.19 as it was with M/R and S/K, I doubt the feds care who they send. At that point it’s a matter of if your favorites won or not.
    Your sentence about judges not holding people down (and other people up) in order to influence who is send to Europeans (or 4CC or Worlds) is a bit naive. It is happening in many counties that the results of nationals can be slightly 'influenced' through second mark or GOE.

    The difference between last year and this year is, as you said, G/E did not have history and had strong showing at last years nationals, so the judges did not have any reason to not wanting to send them. In comparison, this year M/R did have history that went against them; they have been inconsistent last few years. Whereas S/K don't have such mark against them. If you compare the quality of skating, surely you must see that M/R have much better skating, posture etc. They did not get (especially on second mark) what they deserved. S/K doesn't even look like a Russian pair. It is like if they have never heard the words ballet, posture etc. On the other hand, they are consistent. And unlike you, I do think that Russian federation cares who to send. This is not about who my favourite pair is, this is about trying to be objective and I do think that M/R did deserve to go. Although it might be better that they are not going, because if they messed up, the Federation would not forgive and forget that for a long time. It may be better if they become consistent first.

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