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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by barbk View Post
    Thanks, Doris!

    Is this a "Field of Play" error? I thought that covered things like a triple being called as a double, but mathematical errors (which is what these seem to be) fall under a different process/timeframe for resolution? (I'm not sure if anything is allowed to be changed once the medals have been awarded.)
    P. 118 of the ISU Constitution speaks to protests and changing of results/scores: link. Note this paragraph:

    "However, if the Referee learns...within 24 hours after the award ceremony that an incorrect
    mathematical calculation occurred, the Referee may correct
    the calculation even without a protest provided that the
    Technical Controller, both Technical Specialists and the Data
    Operator all agree that there was such an incorrect calculation.
    If such correction requires corrections of the final placements
    of the Skaters, the corresponding medals and/or awards shall
    be changed accordingly"

    So it appears they went outside the 24-hour window in this case, probably because the math error would have consequences beyond the GPF, if not corrected. Or, maybe the correction did take place within 24 hours, but the public is only just hearing about it now.

  2. #62
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    [QUOTE=shuilee;3417105]I wonder if Weaver & Poje should have won NHK gold medal over Shibs because of the computer bug.....they did lose by 0.1...they'll have to review all the competitions this year!


    No. The Shibs would have won NHK by a WIDER margin over Weaver/Poje.

    The calculation error applied to not giving adequate value to combination lifts. Weaver/Poje do not do a combination lift. The Shibs do.

    In fact, similar to Virtue & Moir, the Shibs should have had a higher score in the Free Dance at the Grand Prix Final as well, as they were the only other team performing a combination lift.

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbk View Post
    Thanks, Doris!

    Is this a "Field of Play" error? I thought that covered things like a triple being called as a double, but mathematical errors (which is what these seem to be) fall under a different process/timeframe for resolution? (I'm not sure if anything is allowed to be changed once the medals have been awarded.)
    I'm not clear about the procedural stuff.

    Perhaps this was brought up because it determines which of the two teams is first on the all time high FD under the current general structure, although their file is kind of crazy:
    http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/pbsdfd.htm

    Also P&B did a combo lift at the GPF. They are 3rd on the personal best list.

    That four teams got their personal best on the FD are all from one event says some odd stuff about the judging at this year's GPF, which seemed remarkably lenient to me. In fact even Terry Gannon found it a bit eye opening and warned that scores would likely be lower at worlds.



    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FD_Scores.pdf

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by AxelAnnie View Post
    Yes but.............really? When you update the system, it is someones job to make sure it is updated. I know it is only figure skating....not an airplane navigational system, but still..............

    And, that aside............why mention it. Really.
    Because I am entitled to have a contribution to the discussion? And I understand how it works because I do software updates for our computers here.

    Anyway that is exactly right. Someone had to update the software to begin with, someone has to update the particular computer the software is on. It all comes down to a person doing a job. And when you rely on people mistakes get made. So someone has to do it and if they forget something or are unaware then something will get missed and it can affect the results.

    With our own competitions here we have exactly the same problems, but also because a lot of the time we are using the system without the verification rules that are not in there for lower level events and have to put the factorings and other stuff in manually.

    Quote Originally Posted by aka_gerbil View Post
    Regardless of other details regarding this situation (the teams, the events, etc.), at the end of the day, it boils down to the fact that there was an error with the software and an element wasn't getting the score it was supposed to. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it being brought up and pointed out that an element was not being scored right by the computer.

    Would it really be better for the whole rest of the season to go on without the software error being fixed?
    Very good point.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  5. #65
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    it isn't like they didn't skate before.

    1) why didn't they notice the error when they skated at the finland trophy which v/m won

    2) why didn't they notice it at Skate Canada & Trophy Eric Bombard which Virture and Moir won both event.

    3) why did they only notice it at GRand prix final which Viture and Moir came in 2nd.

    4) why didn't they notice it for the shibutanis if it was a combo lift when shibutani's came in 2nd in Cup of china and nhk trophy which they won.

    it only seems like they came out of the error and corrected in because v/m complained about coming in 2nd in the gpf-so they had to find out why . which tells me v/m are sore losers.

    which also tells me they only correct the errors for the skaters/teams they want to win.
    they didn't correct the 2004 error for michelle kwan regarding she didn't have to have full point deduction for judges yet they all gave her a deduction when it wasn't mandatory. not to mention why call a fall n 2002 when it wasn't called in 2006, and not now. why count falls back them , when they don't do it now. a point so what-doesn't affect standing as long as you are the skater they want up there.
    sorry-but for me it is still cheating. you correct calls/errors for everyone not just for some-otherwise it is cheating.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by query5 View Post
    it only seems like they came out of the error and corrected in because v/m complained about coming in 2nd in the gpf-so they had to find out why . which tells me v/m are sore losers.
    Wow...the power of Virtue and Moir.
    Bloom where you're planted. Hillary Clinton

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    There is no special treatment here. An error was discovered. V&M said they would go back and look at the numbers to see where they could gain points and most likely, instead of redesigning their lifts, made an inquiry first as to why the combo wasn't getting the GOE according to the July changes. This is not some big conspiracy and was a big topic during the GPF. Lots of people read these boards.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by query5 View Post
    it isn't like they didn't skate before.

    1) why didn't they notice the error when they skated at the finland trophy which v/m won

    2) why didn't they notice it at Skate Canada & Trophy Eric Bombard which Virture and Moir won both event.

    3) why did they only notice it at GRand prix final which Viture and Moir came in 2nd.

    4) why didn't they notice it for the shibutanis if it was a combo lift when shibutani's came in 2nd in Cup of china and nhk trophy which they won.

    it only seems like they came out of the error and corrected in because v/m complained about coming in 2nd in the gpf-so they had to find out why . which tells me v/m are sore losers.

    which also tells me they only correct the errors for the skaters/teams they want to win.
    they didn't correct the 2004 error for michelle kwan regarding she didn't have to have full point deduction for judges yet they all gave her a deduction when it wasn't mandatory. not to mention why call a fall n 2002 when it wasn't called in 2006, and not now. why count falls back them , when they don't do it now. a point so what-doesn't affect standing as long as you are the skater they want up there.
    sorry-but for me it is still cheating. you correct calls/errors for everyone not just for some-otherwise it is cheating.
    Nice research! However, I would call it inconsistency, and some politicking, rather than cheating. Some of those could have been honest errors, but I do agree that some feds have more power than others. It is however surprising that Kwan, the 5x world champion from USA did not get the benefit of doubt. About falls in 2002 vs 2006, they may have changed the definition of a fall- 4 years is a long time. So sometimes it's due to rule changes or simply different interpretation of the rules. They were in a transition from 2002 to 2006. BTW I have always admired skaters who showed grace when the reults seemed unfair.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by AxelAnnie View Post
    I know it is only figure skating....not an airplane navigational system, but still..............
    I say, thanks Gud.

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    The ISU GPF protocols still show D&W winning the FD.

    Perhaps this has something to do with the 24 hour window for protesting mathematical results?

    But if so, the original ISU letter was odd.

  11. #71
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    Since all these formulas are public, the ISU really has to acknowledge when there are errors as anyone who has the time and inclination can do the math. But they do have rules about when results can be challenged so at this point they can't change any results.
    "Cupcakes are bullshit. And everyone knows it. A cupcake is just a muffin with clown puke topping." -Charlie Brooker

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    No matter who wants to put a spin on it (V&M haterz)......it's not their (V&M's) fault. It doesn't really change anything that has happened, but it will slightly impact future comps for those with comb. lifts. Whoever found it, I am glad they did.
    Addicted to FSU

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Because I am entitled to have a contribution to the discussion? And I understand how it works because I do software updates for our computers here.
    Oh.....I didn't mean why did YOU mention it. Boy, if I was the ISU, I would have just fixed it, and gone off into the night.. I know, I know...that is bad....but I just hate to see another incident of error in the scoring. Geesh.
    DH - and that's just my opinion

  14. #74
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    Fans: "We want transparency!"
    ISU: "OK, fine. Here--we screwed up, so we're going to tell you about it."
    Fans: "How DARE you make an error!"
    ISU: "That's going to be the last time we tell those guys anything."

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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by query5 View Post
    they didn't correct the 2004 error for michelle kwan regarding she didn't have to have full point deduction for judges yet they all gave her a deduction when it wasn't mandatory. not to mention why call a fall n 2002 when it wasn't called in 2006, and not now. why count falls back them , when they don't do it now.
    My curiosity is piqued... what are you talking about? In 2004 Michelle Kwan did not compete under CoP. She did Nationals and Worlds which were under 6.0 (and maybe a cheesefest or two, I don't remember). In 2002 there was no CoP and therefore no blinking sign that said "here is the deduction for a fall."

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    Since all these formulas are public, the ISU really has to acknowledge when there are errors as anyone who has the time and inclination can do the math. But they do have rules about when results can be challenged so at this point they can't change any results.
    As I read them, those rules are about skaters or officials challenging results. They don't address what happens if the ISU itself discovers an error in its own calculations.
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    My curiosity is piqued... what are you talking about? In 2004 Michelle Kwan did not compete under CoP. She did Nationals and Worlds which were under 6.0 (and maybe a cheesefest or two, I don't remember). In 2002 there was no CoP and therefore no blinking sign that said "here is the deduction for a fall."
    I think they may be referring to a time deduction in the short program in 2004. I forget how deductions were taken under 6.0. Obviously it wasn't 1 point, but I think a tenth, .1, taken off the tech mark. Something like that.

    ETA: Maybe this is the program. Although no deduction is mentioned, Dick talks about the difficulty of meeting the last beat of the music.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1wIu...eature=related
    Last edited by soxxy; 12-30-2011 at 09:15 PM.

  19. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    As I read them, those rules are about skaters or officials challenging results. They don't address what happens if the ISU itself discovers an error in its own calculations.
    It seems odd to me that the error was not discovered sooner. If it is as has been said, a V/M was scouring the scores and noticed they did not receive credit for the combo lift, I would have thought that kind of non-credit would have been noticed before...by someone. I assume that skaters and coaches go back and scour those scores after a competition.
    DH - and that's just my opinion

  20. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by soxxy View Post
    I think they may be referring to a time deduction in the short program in 2004. I forget how deductions were taken under 6.0. Obviously it wasn't 1 point, but I think a tenth, .1, taken off the tech mark. Something like that.

    ETA: Maybe this is the program. Although no deduction is mentioned, Dick talks about the difficulty of meeting the last beat of the music.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1wIu...eature=related
    Kwan received a timing deduction at Worlds that year, which was a 0.1 deduction from EACH mark under the 6.0 system (provided the skater was within 10 seconds of the allowed time, which Kwan certainly was). I don't remember hearing about her getting a timing deduction at any other competitions.

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