What happened to ladies skating?

[escaflowne9282]

Any FSUer who fulfills at least one of the following criteria:

1) A Shizuka uber
2) A Kiira uber
3) A Leonova uber
4) Alcoholics
5) Anyone who owns/wears bumbags on a regular basis
6) Any remaining fans of: Rahkamo/Kokko, Drobiazko/Vanagas, DelSchoes, A/P or P/B.
7) Fans of white boots
8) Anyone who secretly enjoys Ksenia Makarova's take on Marilyn Monroe.
9) The members of the Olga Markova Appreciation Society
10) Fans of the Golden Girls.

I meet the criteria of 1, 4(when there's an open bar), 6, 7, and secretly 10 as well.

[gkelly]

Was there ever an era when both blurred scratch spins and multiple triple jumps were common in ladies' skating? I think simple scratch spins performed with that speed had fallen out of favor well before the end of the figures era.

[Aussie Willy]

I'm really mourning the short program spiral sequence for the ladies. That was the ladies' chance to show their edgework and control, and shine up to the audience. When I look back on my favorite ladies' short programs, it's always the spiral sequence I remember. Now the programs are all twisty turny, with no room to breathe and connect to the audience.

I hate to add more rules to the C.O.P. but I feel like there should be a time limit for footwork sequences so they're forced to cover more ice and actually skate. If they did that, and cut a spin out of the short program, there'd definitely be enough time for the spiral sequence.

Spirals got boring, that is why they took it out. Seriously everyone was doing the same sort of spirals and it just wasn't adding anything to the programs. And everyone could pretty much do it and get level 4.

They really are not a difficult element and any competent skater can do one.

[smarts1]

^ Well then they could do the choreography spirals that are required for the LPs. It won't eat up too much time from the SP. And it'll cut down on hideously long step sequences.

[loulou]

If Kiira attempts - AND LANDS - seven triples in her LP this year, I will buy every single person on FSU a case of Moet

Oh my, I'd go crazy happy if that happened.

In case, send me over some quality chocolate - Godiva would do - since I don't drink alcohol

Any FSUer who fulfills at least one of the following criteria:

1) A Shizuka uber
2) A Kiira uber
3) A Leonova uber
4) Alcoholics
5) Anyone who owns/wears bumbags on a regular basis
6) Any remaining fans of: Rahkamo/Kokko, Drobiazko/Vanagas, DelSchoes, A/P or P/B.
7) Fans of white boots
8) Anyone who secretly enjoys Ksenia Makarova's take on Marilyn Monroe.
9) The members of the Olga Markova Appreciation Society
10) Fans of the Golden Girls.

I qualify!
As for points 2) and 7).

[Triple Butz]

Spirals got boring, that is why they took it out. Seriously everyone was doing the same sort of spirals and it just wasn't adding anything to the programs. And everyone could pretty much do it and get level 4.

They really are not a difficult element and any competent skater can do one.

That's complete BS. A good spiral with a strong edge and beautiful position is incredibly difficult. Even some of the highest ranking skaters with wonderful skating skills (Slutskaya comes to mind) often had trouble maintaining balance/edging during their spirals. Maybe if the judges didn't hand out positive GOE to crappy looking spirals like candy, the skaters would have worked harder on that element.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av7fBhDP-o8#t=2m25s

This, for example got all +1's and +2's...

[gkelly]

The point is, it's relatively easy to achieve the levels.

It's not so easy to do difficult features or even simple but attractively stretched positions on deep solid edges with good speed and ice coverage. But that's what's rewarded or penalized in the GOE, not in the levels. And that is still the case in the choreo spirals for the senior ladies' long program.

There were plenty of novice ladies, or weak senior ladies, doing level 4 spiral sequences that were slower, smaller, shallower than Slutskaya's. Maybe their positions were prettier, or maybe not.

Maybe they didn't wobble as evidently as Slutskaya on that particular occasion from that camera angle. It's possible that it looked steadier live, or the judges who gave +2 were busy focusing on the whole body and not the blade.

If weaker skaters who meet the criteria for the element usually earned 0 GOE, what should a strong skater earn when she executes the element well? How much should she lose when there's a visible wobble?

[fenway2]

At the same Euros Carolina skated this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28djAK9g4-0

I'm so glad you posted this video. Yes, Caroline was juniorish in this performance but her jumps were One of my favorite performances of her just for the jumps alone and the way she oozed with potential. Those 3/3a were .

I think Viktoria Pavuk landed 7 triples in a long program at Euros early in her career too and finished 4th.
And probably not the most popular thread to post this on but I just started compiling a wiki-based database of ladies figure skaters. For those interested I already have nearly 1,000 entries. Still in the very early stages though. http://www.resultscorner.com

[Triple Butz]

The point is, it's relatively easy to achieve the levels.

It's not so easy to do difficult features or even simple but attractively stretched positions on deep solid edges with good speed and ice coverage. But that's what's rewarded or penalized in the GOE, not in the levels. And that is still the case in the choreo spirals for the senior ladies' long program.

There were plenty of novice ladies, or weak senior ladies, doing level 4 spiral sequences that were slower, smaller, shallower than Slutskaya's. Maybe their positions were prettier, or maybe not.

Maybe they didn't wobble as evidently as Slutskaya on that particular occasion from that camera angle. It's possible that it looked steadier live, or the judges who gave +2 were busy focusing on the whole body and not the blade.

If weaker skaters who meet the criteria for the element usually earned 0 GOE, what should a strong skater earn when she executes the element well? How much should she lose when there's a visible wobble?

If it's too easy to achieve the levels, then perhaps the criteria should have been revamped. That seems like a better solution to me than simply throwing the entire element out the window.

Secondly, a good flowing edge is the BASIS for a spiral and what a good judge would pay attention to first and foremost. If the skater cannot achieve that, I don't think they deserve anything better than a -1. In the case I referenced above, the skater's body was also out of balance on several occasions, and several positions showed poor line and poor body positioning. The only positive aspect to that spiral sequence was that it was performed at great speed. This is not enough to overcome the other deficiencies.

[Aussie Willy]

That's complete BS. A good spiral with a strong edge and beautiful position is incredibly difficult. Even some of the highest ranking skaters with wonderful skating skills (Slutskaya comes to mind) often had trouble maintaining balance/edging during their spirals. Maybe if the judges didn't hand out positive GOE to crappy looking spirals like candy, the skaters would have worked harder on that element.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av7fBhDP-o8#t=2m25s

This, for example got all +1's and +2's...

There is a difference between competent and outstanding. Basically if you have the flexibility you can do an outstanding spiral (like Cohen and Bobek). But most skaters can do a competent spiral and were doing enough to fulfill the criteria. Watch enough lower level competitions and you will see it.

As for the skater you referred to, whilst there were issues with the body, they still did a very clean change of the edge at speed. And the positions would have been considered difficult which is what the judges would have taken into account (difficulty vs execution). The problems only occurred on the first spiral but the rest was competently done. But that program was also quite a few years ago now and maybe in hindsight would be looked at differently now.

[Triple Butz]

There is a difference between competent and outstanding. Basically if you have the flexibility you can do an outstanding spiral (like Cohen and Bobek). But most skaters can do a competent spiral. Watch enough lower level competitions and you will see it.

Aren't you a judge??

The first and most important aspect of an "outstanding spiral" should be the edge control. Position and carriage are extremely important, but secondary to edging.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtNTyUG0DTE#t=1m05s
THIS, for example, is an "outstanding" spiral, not a "competent" one. It does not exhibit flexibility anywhere near Kwan, Cohen, Bobek, etc but the edges are incredible, as is the speed and the balance/carriage.

[Triple Butz]

As for the skater you referred to, whilst there were issues with the body, they still did a very clean change of the edge at speed. And the positions would have been considered difficult which is what the judges would have taken into account (difficulty vs execution). The problems only occurred on the first spiral but the rest was competently done. But that program was also quite a few years ago now and maybe in hindsight would be looked at differently now.

You think that change of edge was VERY CLEAN????

And no, the rest was not competent. There were wobbly edges throughout the sequence.

[Loves_Shizuka]

L_S is so pleased so many of you meet the criteria for his FSU Moet List

[Aussie Willy]

Aren't you a judge??

Yes and I am trying to explain why the judges may have made the decisions they did just as gkelly did. There were other aspects of the element that would have been looked at postively, regardless of what you consider was a major error. However I am not actually making any personal comment on what I would have given the element myself.

You think that change of edge was VERY CLEAN????

And no, the rest was not competent. There were wobbly edges throughout the sequence.

Actually the change of edge went straight from the inside to outside edge, without skating both edges at the same time as it transitioning. That is a change of edge. And it was done at speed without hesitation. If anyone had a chance to see the tracing of the blade left on the ice you would not have seen both edges had been on the ice during the transition.

But I suppose I don't know what I am looking at, do I? Why don't you become a judge as you obviously know much more than the rest of us on this forum.

[gkelly]

I guess it's a question of whether you start by looking at a typical successful element by the the top skaters, make that your baseline for 0 or +1, and then subtract from there (or on very rare occasions go up to +2 or +3).

Or do you look at a typical successful element by average skaters and make that the baseline for 0 GOE, from which to go up and down?

[edonice]

A good spiral sequence required excellent control, speed, line, and charisma. It was always the element that clearly delineated the best skaters from the rest of the pack. You can flail your way through a step sequence, and pretzel your way through a spin, but it’s much harder to fudge your way through a spiral sequence.

Elizaveta Tuktamisheva was the break-out skater of the year, but if you watched her closely her ice coverage was lacking, and she was really working it across the ice. There would have been a clear-as-day difference between a spiral sequence from her and a spiral sequence by Carolina Kostner or Alissa Czisny.

But maybe this is one of the things that’s toughest about judging. Judges now have to break elements down into components to accurately assess them, and that can make it hard to see how much those components work in concert. I also think this awareness of how difficult it is to both break an element down and see it in its entirety is what’s driving positive changes in the C.O.P system. As the judging system evolves, it’s getting easier and easier to assess what’s really good. Maybe now the spiral sequences would be judged more completely than they were when the C.O.P system was really young.

So I still say… bring it back!!

[smarts1]

That's complete BS. A good spiral with a strong edge and beautiful position is incredibly difficult. Even some of the highest ranking skaters with wonderful skating skills (Slutskaya comes to mind) often had trouble maintaining balance/edging during their spirals. Maybe if the judges didn't hand out positive GOE to crappy looking spirals like candy, the skaters would have worked harder on that element.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av7fBhDP-o8#t=2m25s

This, for example got all +1's and +2's...

And I'm still kind of as to how that step sequence got a level 3. The other ladies had way more content in their step sequences and only got level 2s. There was definitely something funny going on with the levels given out at the 2006 Olympics for the ladies.

[Triple Butz]

And I'm still kind of as to how that step sequence got a level 3. The other ladies had way more content in their step sequences and only got level 2s. There was definitely something funny going on with the levels given out at the 2006 Olympics for the ladies.

Well, we have a judge here who thinks that the only way to achieve an outstanding spiral is to have Sasha-Cohen-like flexibility...anything less is all grouped together under "competent." I think the problem is that the judges themselves don't really know what they're looking for. Time for a changing of the guard.

[Aussie Willy]

But maybe this is one of the things that’s toughest about judging. Judges now have to break elements down into components to accurately assess them, and that can make it hard to see how much those components work in concert. I also think this awareness of how difficult it is to both break an element down and see it in its entirety is what’s driving positive changes in the C.O.P system. As the judging system evolves, it’s getting easier and easier to assess what’s really good. Maybe now the spiral sequences would be judged more completely than they were when the C.O.P system was really young.

Totally agree and you have summed it up very well. I don't think some people get that you have to look at every aspect of an element and not just look at one thing. That is one of the things that make judging very difficult.

[Vagabond]

The first and most important aspect of an "outstanding spiral" should be the edge control. Position and carriage are extremely important, but secondary to edging.

Maybe edge control should be the first and most important aspect of an "outstanding spiral," but that's not how the ISU looks at it.

From ISU Communication No. 1611, which was in effect last season:

Updated Guidelines for marking +GOE of Single/Pair Elements
(positive aspects)

....

To establish the starting GOE Judges must take into consideration the bullets for each element. It is at the discretion of each Judge to decide on the number of bullets for any upgrade, but general recommendations are as follows:

FOR + 1 : 2 bullets
FOR + 2 : 4 bullets
FOR + 3 : 6 or more bullets

....

Spiral Sequences

1) good flow, energy and execution
2) good speed during sequence
3) good body line and full extension
4) minimal delay between spiral positions
5) good flexibility
6) creativity and originality
7) ability to attain positions and variations quickly and effortlessly
8) element matched to the musical structure

...

Updated Guidelines in establishing GOE for errors in Short Program and Free Skating

...

SPIRALS

Fall -3
Poor positions -1 to -3
Less than half of the pattern in spiral position -2 to -3
Stumble -1 to -2
Poor edge quality -1 to -2

And here is some information about the Scale of Values for spiral sequences. I'm not sure how recent it is.

Figure Skating Spirals in Competition

Spirals on each foot, forward & backward, inside & outside mandatory for Levels 3-4

Number of features for Levels : 2 for Level 2, 3 for Level 3, 4 for Level 4

• A difficult variation of position

• A difficult variation of position on a different foot significantly different from the first variation

• Change of edge in a spiral

• Unsupported change of free leg position or direction of skating maintaining the spiral (3 seconds hold before and after the change)

• Free leg in a total split position, one or both arms hold possible

• Holding spiral position (without any interruption) for 6 or more seconds without changes in position/variation

A skater who could master the first, second, fifth, and sixth entries on the list of features, was very flexible and able to achieve the positions quickly, and had average (but not "poor") edges could easily get a Level 4 with +1 GOE.

Skaters and their coaches quickly figured out the positions that would result in a SpSq4, and about three dozen of the competitors in Ladies at Worlds in 2010 had one in their SP. For what it's worth, ten of those skaters earned GOE of at least 1.00 on that element.