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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    Wait a minute, the jump content you mentioned isn't quite right. Her Oly jump content was: 2A, 3F, 3T-1T, 3S, 1LZ, 3R, 3T (hand down). No eighth jumping pass. 5 triples, 4 clean.
    You're right. I was confusing her FS at Nationals that year with how she did at the Olympics.

    However, under CoP, she'd get negative GOE for the 3T-1T (the 1T was horrible), and the 3T, leaving her with three clean jumping passes that involved triples. Her marks would also suffer because she had only one combination (and only a 3T+1T at that), and her spins and footwork wouldn't score very highly under CoP either.

    Quote Originally Posted by falling_dance View Post
    I know that the 3T was slightly two-footed and the 3F very obviously so, but what was the third triple-jumping error? Did she flutz?
    To me, at least, the triple lutz looks like it's off the correct edge but underrotated (3Z<, not 3<<).

  2. #22
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    A bunch of the ladies today would have faired well under 6.0 too. Namely, someone like Mao because they wouldn't have had to work on fixing her flutz under 6.0.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    A bunch of the ladies today would have faired well under 6.0 too. Namely, someone like Mao because they wouldn't have had to work on fixing her flutz under 6.0.
    Mao doesn't have all the triples.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    Mao doesn't have all the triples.
    Yes, she does. Like smarts1 said, if you count her flutz as a lutz, then she has (and currently attempts) all triples.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    I barely watch ladies skating anymore, it just kind of bores me now. It occurred to me that the top ladies programs of today (Carolina, Mao) would not have had a chance medaling at any of the Olympics from 1992 onward.

    In fact, a top 5 finish would have been improbable.
    Watch Russian nationals. The majority of the girls have 3-3. I think it is much tougher competition that the whole GP season.

    For me it is much more boring to watch men and dance. You always know who will win, especially in men, so why don't they just send the medal to Patrick by post and save on a hotel and travelling expenses?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miruna View Post
    Mao would have been multiple champion in the 6.0 system. Remember how many points she lost up until 2010-2011 season with her 3A< which had a base value of a 2A. Her 3Flutz would receive no penalty and she would probably still try 3F-3L since there were no UR. I can understand your point with Carolina, but not with Mao.
    I wish people would quit asserting that flutzes and URs were completely ignored in 6.0. It's simply untrue. While it was not as heavily penalized, all you have to do is look at Sarah's Hughes' and Surya Bonaly's placements to see that the judges were not rewarding them for their technical flaws. How many times did they land more jumps than their competitors, but finish behind them? Sarah Hughes won world bronze by placing 4th in the SP and LP. In SLC, her SP placement was the result of inconsistency by the judges of all the skaters in the 4-10 range. She only won the long program because all three of the top skaters underperformed.

    Skaters can/could and did/do win in both systems even with edge violations and under-rotations.
    Last edited by Triple Butz; 12-28-2011 at 01:16 AM.

  7. #27
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    ^ Surya beat everyone on the technical mark when she won those silver medals at Worlds in 93, 94, and 95. She lost on the second mark, so I don't see what you mean...

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    ^ Surya beat everyone on the technical mark when she won those silver medals at Worlds in 93, 94, and 95. She lost on the second mark, so I don't see what you mean...
    Marks were only used to place skaters. And the second mark was used as an overall quality of skating too (it was not an artistic mark).
    Anyway, Surya had the most difficult program and didn't win.
    Same with Sarah Hughes : 7 triples at 1999 Worlds, 2001 Worlds, and 2002 Olympics, but not the best marks compared to the others, because of her flutz and under-rotations.

  9. #29

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    Who was the first lady to skate a 7 triple program at worlds or Olympics? Ito? After Midori, who was the next? I think Kristi started attempting 7 triple programs in 1991, but she never accomplished one, iirc.

    It must not have been super common to even attempt, because when Kwan won in '96 Lu was only attempting 6. I think Lu only attempted 7 triples in 1998.

    Once it became "the norm," I think the majority of those 6 or 7 triple programs outside of the medalists were mostly crossovers between the jumps.

    I would rather see less attempts at 6 or 7 triples if it means less crossovers. As for the lutz, I don't know when the 3z became the be all end all. I'd rather see someone with great skating skills and speed who's only repeating loops, toes or salchows then someone with minimal ice coverage and a flawed lutz, or flawed jumps generally.

    This topic inevitably leads to bashing the 6.0 generation, which isn't really fair. But there's no way even skaters from '96-'02 would have been regularly getting credit for 6 or 7 triple jump programs, nor should they have been. Skaters in the 6.0 didn't have to waste (and I do mean waste!) an extra 15-20 seconds plus loads of energy on a step sequence. That has to take a lot out of the legs
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    Who was the first lady to skate a 7 triple program at worlds or Olympics? Ito? After Midori, who was the next? I think Kristi started attempting 7 triple programs in 1991, but she never accomplished one, iirc.

    It must not have been super common to even attempt, because when Kwan won in '96 Lu was only attempting 6. I think Lu only attempted 7 triples in 1998.
    Kristi Yamaguchi landed 7 triples at 1992 US Nationals.
    Lu Chen already attempted 7 triples in 1991 and 1992 Junior Worlds, including a 3T/3T. I don't remember if she landed everything.

  11. #31

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    I want to say that Surya Bonaly (in 1993) was the next skater to successfully land seven triples at the World/Olympic level, followed by Michelle Kwan in 1995, but I could be wrong. (ETA: Apparently! See #33.)
    Last edited by falling_dance; 12-27-2011 at 09:30 PM.

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    In Nagano, her SP placement was the result of inconsistency by the judges of all the skaters in the 4-10 range. She only won the long program because all three of the top skaters underperformed.
    I think you must mean Salt Lake City, not Nagano.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Kristi Yamaguchi landed 7 triples at 1992 US Nationals.
    Lu Chen already attempted 7 triples in 1991 and 1992 Junior Worlds, including a 3T/3T. I don't remember if she landed everything.
    Chen landed 7 triples at 1991 Senior Worlds, including 3T3T and two lutzes, when she was fourteen years of age.
    I hear outside a million panicking birds, and know even out there comfort is done with; it has shattered even the stars, this creature at last come home to me.

  14. #34
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    Blame Morozov

  15. #35

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    Interesting that when FS fans talk about great ladies programs, they talk about Midori, Chen Lu, Michelle, Tara, Kristi... no one mentions anything this decade except Yu-Na's Oly programs.

    And I don't think any current ladies will go down in history as having amazing programs. It's sad.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Skatefan View Post
    I think you must mean Salt Lake City, not Nagano.
    Of course, my bad!

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    Interesting that when FS fans talk about great ladies programs, they talk about Midori, Chen Lu, Michelle, Tara, Kristi... no one mentions anything this decade except Yu-Na's Oly programs.

    And I don't think any current ladies will go down in history as having amazing programs. It's sad.
    well I disagree, the reason why people mentioned the old skaters was because they where compering them with the current skaters! both Mao Asada and Yuna Kim have left behind some really amazing programs!

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    Interesting that when FS fans talk about great ladies programs, they talk about Midori, Chen Lu, Michelle, Tara, Kristi... no one mentions anything this decade except Yu-Na's Oly programs.

    And I don't think any current ladies will go down in history as having amazing programs. It's sad.
    Mao Asada has skated some amazing programs too.

  19. #39
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    Ladies is boring, but it has been since before CoP. At least it has remained consistent. The other disciplines are getting more boring with CoP. I don't dread the ladies as much!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    The jihad against under-rotation that the ISU pursued a few years ago didn't convince skaters to fully rotate their jumps (if they could to that they already would have been doing so) but to eliminate ambitious jumps, potential problem jumps and jump combinations that they weren't 100 % sure of.
    And the wrong-edge takeoffs... rather than making everyone learn the correct lutz and flip, they just don't do them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maofan7 View Post
    Current position in best skater of 2011 poll with 199 votes cast:-

    1. Men - 77 votes
    2. Ice dance - 71 votes
    3. Pairs - 32 votes
    4. Ladies - 19 votes

    That says it all about the current state of ladies skating - at a low ebb.
    It says to me that the US and Canada are doing much better in men and dance right now than pairs and ladies. Most of the posters here are from North America. Put that poll on a Chinese, Japanese, or Russian board and the results would be different.

  20. #40

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    I just think that ladies skating is in somewhat of a slump right now. I think someone will come along and start doing 6-7 triple programs again and it will become the norm again. Makes me appreciate skaters like Kwan and Rochette all over again.

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