Virtue/Moir Thread #13 (mach two): S'Wonderful

[Golightly]

I think Zueva try to made something different and she does experiment on V-M. After she will see will judges like this or no, she will use this or no for D-W next season.

LOL. V-M have more ambitious programs, pani. That's all I can say.

[Cherub721]

I want to add some thoughts.
I must tell, that during ECh ice dance stream on russian TV,commentator said: " Did you know, V-M lost W-P at Nationasl in SD and they are very close with W-P in FD. Maybe this is Krylova coahing talent". So i think SC did what they want - they show V-M are not at the high level, then others.

That's why V&M's Nats scores worried me. I really don't get this whole reversal on their SD. They got great feedback during the GP. Everyone was saying they were the only couple to capture the Latin feel. They posted the highest SD scores, even slightly higher than D&W. Then when they finally met D&W at GPF, they had the fall, and even with the fall they were pretty far back, which started the chorus of "they have a problem with their SD." And then by barely placing them ahead of W&P, Skate Canada has confirmed this fiction that their SD is awful, and I just don't get how something that was a strength a few months ago is now such a problem. Now I'm reading comments like "Meryl does Latin so much better than Tessa" and I'm like

Meanwhile with the FD they had been scoring below D&W during the GP. They actually won the FD at GPF, but since we didn't know that until the scoring error was revealed, it kind of gets forgotten and their FD is not seen as a strength, either.

I think if the Russian commentators are talking about it, the Russian judges and officials are too, and so are officials from other countries. They're getting this rep now that they're having a bad season, struggling, and really... they're not? Their programs are very good and their skating is excellent other than 1-2 normal mistakes. It's all in the perception.

[IoanaC]

The rhumba pattern lacks that theme, that connection, look at those steps, at those holds, it's all so awkward and demanding, hard to perform out of a particular context. For two people worried about dancing, this represents a challenge. Maybe if they approached their skating to achieve levels, they'd be more clinical about it (ala Davis and White) but they don't skate like that, they don't go out there and go: step 1, step 2, etc. The rhumba pattern forces you to do that. I don't know if I'm making sense, I hope you understand what I mean.

I agree with this and I also think, as Marbri pointed out, that it's very much a coaching/choreography issue. The middle section of "Funny Face" could be more exciting as well, they could do so much more with that jazzy, modern music (look at Savchenko&Szolkowy's "Pina", for instance).
Pani, the idea that "V/M are not so good anymore", according to those Russian commentators, is simply stupid. It's enough to watch them skate, there's no need to justify anything. Also, remember that Kustarova prefers to ignore her students' shortcomings and blame everyone else. Bobrova and Soloviev fight for a place on the Worlds podium. Any opinion of hers regarding Tessa & Scott is to be taken with a grain of salt.

[IoanaC]

Now I'm reading comments like "Meryl does Latin so much better than Tessa" and I'm like

You're not the only one...

[pani]

That's why V&M's Nats scores worried me. I really don't get this whole reversal on their SD. They got great feedback during the GP. Everyone was saying they were the only couple to capture the Latin feel. They posted the highest SD scores, even slightly higher than D&W. Then when they finally met D&W at GPF, they had the fall, and even with the fall they were pretty far back, which started the chorus of "they have a problem with their SD." And then by barely placing them ahead of W&P, Skate Canada has confirmed this fiction that their SD is awful, and I just don't get how something that was a strength a few months ago is now such a problem. Now I'm reading comments like "Meryl does Latin so much better than Tessa" and I'm like

Meanwhile with the FD they had been scoring below D&W during the GP. They actually won the FD at GPF, but since we didn't know that until the scoring error was revealed, it kind of gets forgotten and their FD is not seen as a strength, either.

I think if the Russian commentators are talking about it, the Russian judges and officials are too, and so are officials from other countries. They're getting this rep now that they're having a bad season, struggling, and really... they're not? Their programs are very good and their skating is excellent other than 1-2 normal mistakes. It's all in the perception.

Yes, this is really inteersting for me too. They lose SD, OK, but they had mistake and all talking about how Tessa could show such a great body moves in SD. But then for me its look like V-M to said everyone - we have bad programs, we to change something in both our programs this season. Why? Because Zueva al time talking about her masterpiece for D-W? Its all look like PR War sometime.

And thats why i post this - i am worry, because all others check Natioanls results. And i prefer they will say - o, this was Nationals, thats why this team had so high score, but not "they are no so good anymore, because they lose to another team from Canada"

[Cherub721]

And thats why i post this - i am worry, because all others check Natioanls results. And i prefer they will say - o, this was Nationals, thats why this team had so high score, but not "they are no so good anymore, because they lose to another team from Canada"

Exactly... especially since Canadian nationals is known for inflating. If 68 is their inflated score, they're in trouble.

[aka_gerbil]

And thats why i post this - i am worry, because all others check Natioanls results. And i prefer they will say - o, this was Nationals, thats why this team had so high score, but not "they are no so good anymore, because they lose to another team from Canada"

But, regardless of anything else, at the end of the day, V/M DIDN'T LOSE to another team from Canada, in any segment. That is a cold, hard fact. Anyone can go pull up the protocols on Skata Canada's website and see that V/M won both segments! Maybe not by the margins some of us had hoped/expected and feel that they needed to make a good impression, but they still won. Other than the GPF, at this point in time, they've won every segment of every competetion they've been in this year.

[aka_gerbil]

Exactly... especially since Canadian nationals is known for inflating. If 68 is their inflated score, they're in trouble.

Why you can't argue over the fact that they did actually win, if 68 is an inflated score, I do agree that they're in trouble.

My bet, at this point, is that going forward this year, they'll get slammed on the SD but will win the FD, although not by enough to make up the point difference.

[Cherub721]

Other than the GPF, at this point in time, they've won every segment of every competetion they've been in this year.

That's why it's so weird to me that they're getting a rep that they're having a bad season. It's all about perception and hype.

[lavenderblue]

But, regardless of anything else, at the end of the day, V/M DIDN'T LOSE to another team from Canada, in any segment. That is a cold, hard fact. Anyone can go pull up the protocols on Skata Canada's website and see that V/M won both segments! Maybe not by the margins some of us had hoped/expected and feel that they needed to make a good impression, but they still won. Other than the GPF, at this point in time, they've won every segment of every competetion they've been in this year.

They also had a terrible SD at Nats -- 68 is a downgrade from prior scores, but they also fumbled an early element and clearly performed well below their abilities from there, as they freely conceded. I think it's a bit false to compare that particular outing with those of the Shibs and D/W, who both performed very well and confidently in their own Nationals SDs. Let's see what comes at 4CC.

I'm also still curious as to which dance teams at this year's Canadians actually had seriously inflated scores, outside of G/P, whose score, in my opinion, had absolutely nothing to do with V/M and W/P but was about establishing them as a firm Canadian third going forward. Looking at the scores from top to bottom, I had the impression that this was actually a fairly tough tech panel.

[aka_gerbil]

That's why it's so weird to me that they're getting a rep that they're having a bad season. It's all about perception and hype.

It's definitely odd. Even though the standings weren't officially changed, with the scoring error, they technically won the FD, which people had been saying was the weaker of their two programs. Everyone, their dog, and their grandmother had been saying since the beginning of the season that they had the advantage in the SD. The one competetion segment they haven't won is the GPF SD with Scott's fall--a fall that was a total fluke at that. With the fall, I had no problem with them being in second, but I don't think they should have been 5 points behind. The fall wasn't on an element and Scott was bascially down-and-up in a second.

IMO, it really is all about perception.

[marbri]

That is where they were naive in thinking that skating the pattern to different musics would make the judges appreciate it more

That's why they need a coach

[aka_gerbil]

They also had a terrible SD at Nats -- 68 is a downgrade from prior scores, but they also fumbled an early element and clearly performed well below their abilities from there, as they freely conceded. I think it's a bit false to compare that particular outing with those of the Shibs and D/W, who both performed very well and confidently in their own Nationals SDs. Let's see what comes at 4CC.

That is true. They were off before they started, and the twizzle mistake just made it even worse.

I just still think that even if skated clean, this current configuration of the SD is a step back, especially given that prior to the GPF everyone was giving them the advantage. I know I'm repeating myself here, but the only "problem" they seemed to be having was not getting some of their levels, especially with the rhumba sequences. The way to fix that is not to totally overhaul the SD, but practice, practice, practice. (Not that they don't, but you know what I mean.)

[lavenderblue]

I just still think that even if skated clean, this current configuration of the SD is a step back, especially given that prior to the GPF everyone was giving them the advantage. I know I'm repeating myself here, but the only "problem" they seemed to be having was not getting some of their levels, especially with the rhumba sequences. The way to fix that is not to totally overhaul the SD, but practice, practice, practice. (Not that they don't, but you know what I mean.)

I do agree with that. It feels as though they overreacted to something that didn't require overreaction -- Scott didn't fall, nor did they miss their levels, because the structure was somehow wrong. I really felt that as long as they drilled those rhumba sequences and the SS enough, they'd get those 4s, and once that became second nature the PCS would only have more room to grow. The restructuring just seems like overkill.

[aka_gerbil]

IIt feels as though they overreacted to something that didn't require overreaction

I think that's the perfect way of putting it; overreacting to something that didn't require it, or even really require any action.

[Lissa]

Russiam commenators all season during GP talking about V-M not so good anymore and they didnt like FD. This commentator said he like W-P FD a lot this season. Maybe thats why he check CN results and told us during break at ECh.
He taled anout Chans 300 point a lot too

LOL of course the Russians won't like T&S, they ruined the Russian dominance in Ice Dance, no Russian team can come close to them for talent, that does not surprise me at all.

Also they obviously don't know what they are talking about since T&S did not lose the SD so they clearly are not paying attention

[marbri]

LOL of course the Russians won't like T&S, they ruined the Russian dominance in Ice Dance, no Russian team can come close to them for talent, that does not surprise me at all.

Also they obviously don't know what they are talking about since T&S did not lose the SD so they clearly are not paying attention

Russian commentators and other Russians involved in skating have been VERY complimentary of Tessa and Scott so your comment is . There is a lot to be said for momentum in ice dance and right now it is with Davis and White.

[sequins]

Al the negativity is so to me. We're their fans people come on The seasons not over and their SD up until the GPF was their strong point. They fell there and Canadians was their worst performance of the year, in ages in fact. So I'm not throwing in the towel because the Shibs got some whacked out score at U.S. Nats. nor am I getting bent out of shape at Russian commentators who are trying to plant the seeds for Sochi. At worst & barring disaster I still see V&M second at Worlds and in close contention.

I can't believe what's happened in the span of a month. I sure hope 4CC is better or I can't imagine what it'll be like. It can all be turned around and I choose to believe it will but at this point I feel exhausted (and I'm not even competing)I almost wish it was over, when all I want is to enjoy them skate.

[marbri]

I hope 4CC is good for them, their chance to show the joy we saw pre-GPF.

[Rafter]

My final thoughts on the situation goes back to a conversation Tracy and Kurt had after an event but before the anticipated head to head at the GPF. One comment from Tracy stuck with me, she said sometimes it comes down to a decision made months ago (the choice of FD). The general thought was V&M had the stronger SD but the FD could come down to that decision made months earlier (the music and theme for the FD)

I really think D&W have their "masterpiece" this season. The music and concept is perfect for them and most importantly it satisfies instantly. It accentuates their speed, invites the audience to clap along, the phrasing perfect for a FD. Regardless of my personal preferences in ice dance V&M´s FD is a grower but I don't think there is enough time or enough to do with the music and theme to turn things around. Particularly in light of all the time wasted redoing their SD. I can intellectually explain why I think it should score better in some areas but the reality is in the heat of the moment, the heat of competition and especially if D&W skate last I really believe it's a winner for them. I don't consider that doom and gloom, just coming to terms with reality.

I also wonder about the future. I think Igor and Marina are now in the same situation they were when D&W overtook B&A and when B&A overtook L&A. Nothing to do with what child they love more but the reality is you have to serve two teams who want the same spot on the podium, one to retain and one to regain. When V&M came off the GPF they wanted changes to their programs, to find areas to pick up a point here and there. But the points they want to pick up are meant to give them an advantage over D&W. But they also have to serve D&W who will want something new to counteract the advantage they in theory gave to V&M. It's impossible to fully satisfy both teams, impossible. They can say all things are equal and it's up to the skaters to skate well but that isn't reality. It has clearly served them well up until 2010, the friendly rivalry where the order was still accepted but now it's impossible to gain that edge when you skate with your main rivals and the minute you gain "improvements" they will rightfully be asking for the same.

This is a great post. I do think that Virtue & Moir, both individually and together, are superior skaters and dancers than Davis & White, but a lot of times it comes down to program and music choice. I think unfortunately V&M's SD doesn't have a lot of "wow" factor like their FD last year did, and I think Funny Face was a mistake. This music is not that well-known, especially to Euro judges and it's very hard to compete with Die Fledermaus. Die Fledermaus is a lot more accessible than FF and it really carries D&W and the audience (and therefore judges).

Now their choosing Funny Face I blame on Marina. Sure Tessa brought it to the table 5 years ago or whatever, but Marina is the one who suggested it this year and I think any coach with their best interests at heart would have just said NO to it. If Tessa wants to be Audrey Hepburn, let her be it in an exhibition number. There is so much GREAT music out there, why FF?

I agree that V&M are in the same situation B&A were in a few years ago.