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  1. #1
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    The triple toe-triple toe combination in ladies figure skating

    I was wondering recently why more ladies don' t go for a triple toe-triple toe combination. A lot of professional skaters who haven't been skating competitively for years are comfortable with executing triple toes and it would seem to me that a competitive skater would be able to carry two of them off in combination. Am I underestimating the difficulty of this combination? Or is it perhaps the case that the points earned for it don't justify attempting it over your regular triple-double combination?

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    Quote Originally Posted by krenseby View Post
    I was wondering recently why more ladies don' t go for a triple toe-triple toe combination. A lot of professional skaters who haven't been skating competitively for years are comfortable with executing triple toes and it would seem to me that a competitive skater would be able to carry two of them off in combination. Am I underestimating the difficulty of this combination? Or is it perhaps the case that the points earned for it don't justify attempting it over your regular triple-double combination?
    Considering that you get .7 less for doing the Triple Lutz - Double Toe, I'm not surprised. I am surprised that people don't do Double axel triple toe in their long program since you can do one of those and still have a triple into triple toe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macassar88 View Post
    Considering that you get .7 less for doing the Triple Lutz - Double Toe, I'm not surprised. I am surprised that people don't do Double axel triple toe in their long program since you can do one of those and still have a triple into triple toe.
    Do you think the point total for a triple toe-triple toe should be raised or is it fine the way it is?

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    Cop dissuades it IMO. The 2nd triple is very difficult and more prone to ur or 2ft etc... and all the other stuff they've become so picky about with mandatory deductions. It's too risky.

    There is also no big bonus for combos. In a way, breaking everything down and spelling it all out left no wiggle room. Under 6.0, a judge could give an extra 0.1 to the lady who did a 2t/3t vs a 3t/2t. I don't think there is any way to give a bonus under cop for this more difficult combo.

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    There are plenty of ladies attempting this combo in the short this season. At NHK alone, 6 out of the 10 ladies that competed planned or attempted a 3toe/3toe combo.


    With judges hitting skaters with change of edge deductions, I think you are going to see more and more skaters ditching the lutz and flip in the short in favor of the toe/toe.

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    Amber Corwin and Jenny Kirk were probably the first two skaters who ditched their 3 (f)lutz (>) combinations once COP came into affect in 2004-5.

    I think the fact that the skater can "default" to 3 toe-2 toe without automatic -3 GOE should they be not in the best position to complete the second 3 toe is another reason for its increasing popularity in the short program.

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    It's more valuable in the short program because it's the easiest way to get three triples (as opposed to two triples and a double) into the two non-axel jumping passes.

    In the long program, there's less incentive. Triple toe is the lowest-value triple, so if you're able to get seven triples and a double axel into seven jumping passes in ways that allow to repeat two higher-value triples, that would be a better bet in terms of base mark.

    And, as always, the skaters also need to consider the odds of success. Can they land the 3-3 consistently in practice runthroughs (not just in isolation), well enough to deserve positive GOEs? Or do they risk the first landing going wrong or just being too slow to get another triple off of, or underrotating and/or falling on the second jump, in which case they lose points.

    I.e., the best jumpers might be able to get more points by planning harder combinations. For the so-so jumpers among those who can pull off 3T+3T at their best, it might be safer to plan easier content with higher probability of success and positive GOE. The weaker skaters can't do it at all.

    So that leaves the pretty-good jumpers for whom this combo would be a good choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by krenseby View Post
    Do you think the point total for a triple toe-triple toe should be raised or is it fine the way it is?
    I personally think that there should be some sort of incentive on the whole to do difficult combinations. Anyway, if you don't feel comfortable going for the triple toe on the end of the first one, you're pretty much screwed because you'll be 1.9 points behind the triple lutz double toe person.

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    In history, few ladies were able to land a 3T/3T consistently in competition. It seems difficult for most of the ladies, and do that combo with enough consistency in pratice, with the quality to deserve +GOE seems difficult as well.

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    If Midori Ito was skating today, she would get +3 GOE every time she did the 3t-3t (which means every LP) or the 3A. Sorry, couldn't help reminiscing.

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    IIRC at Russian Nationals triple-triple of any kind is rewarded with bonus points in ladies event. I just don't remember how much that was but it'll be great to "impose" this kind of incentive in the ISU sanctioned events, too. Probably it'll cause for ladies to upgrade their technical content more aggressively and may be able to kill current trends of winning with no more than four triples in long program. Certainly 70% factoring in GOE has failed to promote difficult jumps tried more frequently in ladies out of all FS disciplines.

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    I would actually say this combo is very popular. About half of the ladies try it in the SP these days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    I would actually say this combo is very popular. About half of the ladies try it in the SP these days.
    It's a safer combination that any lutz or flip combination. At the very worst they can turn it into a 3t-2t and avoid a fall. That's why it's so popular.

    BTW who was the first lady to land a 3t-3t in a world championship? Was it Elaine Zayak or Denise Biellman or Midori Ito? Those are the only ones I can think of as capable of doing it.

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    I think you don't see more skaters attempting it because they are not consistent with their speed coming out of the first triple toe and are likely to get downgraded on the second jump.

    I've always wondered why some skaters who have better edge jumps don't try a triple loop/double loop as their combo rather than a flutz/lip - toe combo in their SP.
    I meant to take the high road.... but I missed the exit.

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    Ito would have been the first to do it at Worlds. She was also the first female skater to do it in competition at all, I think 1981 Junior Worlds.

    I'm not aware of Zayak or Biellmann ever attempting that combination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Ito would have been the first to do it at Worlds. She was also the first female skater to do it in competition at all, I think 1981 Junior Worlds.

    I'm not aware of Zayak or Biellmann ever attempting that combination.
    Wow she's good!

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    Here's an example where the lady not only did a 3 toe-3 toe as her combination jump, but also did the 3 lutz out of steps as her individual solo triple jump in the short program

    Krisztina Czako - 1997 World Championships Short Program

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    Quote Originally Posted by peibeck View Post
    I think you don't see more skaters attempting it because they are not consistent with their speed coming out of the first triple toe and are likely to get downgraded on the second jump.

    I've always wondered why some skaters who have better edge jumps don't try a triple loop/double loop as their combo rather than a flutz/lip - toe combo in their SP.
    I think your first sentenced was the answer to your second one. the loop is harder to not cheat than. The toe when it's the 2nd jump in the combo. I think Mao is the only one even trying it now.

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    Some skaters have a strong 3t-3t although they often struggle with harder triples, like Sarah Hecken. And Lenka Kulovana did some good 3t-3t's while her only other triple was salchow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    It's a safer combination that any lutz or flip combination. At the very worst they can turn it into a 3t-2t and avoid a fall. That's why it's so popular.

    BTW who was the first lady to land a 3t-3t in a world championship? Was it Elaine Zayak or Denise Biellman or Midori Ito? Those are the only ones I can think of as capable of doing it.
    Exactly. I still think a triple lutz-double toe or a triple flip-double toe should be worth more than the triple toe-triple toe. Come on. How many ladies can do a true triple lutz compared to a triple toe-triple toe? A triple toe-triple toe is still easier than doing a triple lutz or a triple lutz because technically, if you can do a triple toe, you could technically do a triple toe-triple toe.

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