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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    You are comparing two separate sports that don't show the same on TV. Gymnastics has four events going on at once. They don't show the floor routines 1-20 in order, it just doesn't happen. They go back and forth from one event to the other depending on who/what is being shown. The worst gymnasts don't get shown in a live event. .
    That's my point. Floor routines still get done in the same order at the same time, we just don't see them all. Why can't that happen with skating and the main networks? Bold last year showed the entire events live. The main network created slick shows based on the top performers of the day, some of it live. No one would suggest floor routines 1 - 12 compete in the morning, and the elite 8 expected to battle for medals compete in the evening. Why is it acceptable for skating? This ranks up there with the all-time dumbest ideas from Skate Canada.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    That's my point. Floor routines still get done in the same order at the same time, we just don't see them all. Why can't that happen with skating and the main networks? Bold last year showed the entire events live. The main network created slick shows based on the top performers of the day, some of it live. No one would suggest floor routines 1 - 12 compete in the morning, and the elite 8 expected to battle for medals compete in the evening. Why is it acceptable for skating? This ranks up there with the all-time dumbest ideas from Skate Canada.
    You obviously didn't read what I wrote:

    Splitting up the schedule is stupid but don't blame TV; blame the organizers. Universal Sports has been a huge disappointment for me, they aren't even showing short programs. I would love to see skating live on TV, some sacrifices have to be made
    Obviously they aren't going to show all 20 gymnasts or skaters on live TV; only the best of the best. But that is not the network's fault the competition was split up was it? No, it was the competition organizers and like someone said before, if the skaters and coaches have trouble with it, they will complain about it.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    Bold last year showed the entire events live. The main network created slick shows based on the top performers of the day, some of it live. ..... This ranks up there with the all-time dumbest ideas from Skate Canada.
    Exactly. (Though I doubt it's SC's idea.)

    The casual fans who CTV wants to attract won't know exactly what time the competitions are scheduled anyway. The important thing is that the main CTV network should package together a good prime-time show, and surely they can do that.

    Don't destroy the integrity of the sporting event, and the experience for the ticket-buying audience. Does anyone have suggestions of where to send feedback?

  4. #44
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    What pisses me off the most is when they feck up the competition schedule in the holy name of advertising and then television schedule changes. Congratulations, you fecked up the way the men's free works so the final group can be shown live on television? Now it's actually being moved and will be shown tape delayed! Guess you changed things aroud and inconvenienced everyone and added hardship for the people attending, and all for fecking nothing! Ha ha ha ha... and then they turn around and make even more schedule concessions to tv instead of learning that tv schedules can and will change, and when you have to plan an event months in advance, with start times and practice and everything, bending to the whims of how the ephemeral schedule is now is idiotic, because when the wind changes, the ephemeral schedule melts and is replaced. And now you've just wasted it. Congratufeckinglations. You've pissed off your fans and you haven't gained anything. You think casual fans watching on tv care if nationals is tape delayed? Everything else is fecking tape delayed. There's no suspense, don't they realize? I remember one year I was watching some cheesefest and they said "tune in later to see who qualifies for the GPF" and this was shown the week after the final GP event. Everyone who cares knows who qualified, and everyone who doesn't will still tune in to watch the skating! And it's shooting yourself in the foot because we all know a skater who doesn't make your precious tv broadcast cut-off window can still win the fecking event, and then where are you? With egg on your face and congratulations again, you've just become the story: champion skater pulls up so much, not shown on tv! Because of course no one ever pulls up that much to medal or win, we're all just imagining things. Placement equals points, after all! Someone in 8th place must be, like, 80 points out of first, instead of five. And, sure, you can always just shove the program in and "pretend" it happened there, with a brief "oh, and this happened earlier" to cover it up, but it's really because you just noticed that, oh yeah, this one's gonna win, it might be a good idea if we showed the program. This is COP, this stuff happens. You're bending over backwards and it's not helping anyone and it's in fact actively hurting, so they should just knock it off.


    Last edited by Lanna; 11-24-2011 at 04:31 AM.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by victoriajh View Post
    Given that most people who want live events are steaming them online is there much call for the 'primetime' piece anymore? I for one would much rather watch the whole event online that see 5 skaters on tv....
    I never watch skating on the internet. I want to see it in HD on my large screen tv and I want to DVR it so I can watch it when it's convenient for me. I don't think I'm alone in this and the numbers given later in the thread support that. The number of people who stay up to watch skating at 4am so they can see it live on their small computer screens is very minimal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carolla5501 View Post
    They still seem to think they are in the popularity/attention gained from the infamous "whack in Detroit"
    What makes you think that? If they thought that, they'd be like the ISU and hold out for really high TV fees and then not get anything instead of seeding Ice Network and working with NBC to negotiate a contract based on revenue sharing.

    USFS is well aware that the money isn't there and has been prepping for this time for years by doing things like put a lot of The Whack tv money into reserves instead of spending it all when it was coming in.

    USFS does some things very poorly (mostly marketing) but they don't do everything wrong like you'd think from reading these boards.

    One thing I would like to see them do is something other sports do -- buy some TV outright and put on the broadcast themselves and sell ads themselves. I think they don't do that because they feel they are lacking the skills to produce a broadcast, but Ice Network has experience with that they can tap into and other sports have figured out how to do it. when you control the product, you can control how your sport is presented and that can be invaluable in attracting new viewers and keeping old ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    And won't it be embarrassing if the person sitting 7th after the SP ends up winning the title without being televised live?
    All they have to do is film everyone from the morning competition and then insert the skater who gets a really high score into the live broadcast somehow. I bet they already have plans to show 1-2 highlight programs from the morning groups on the live broadcast.

    That doesn't make it fair to the skaters, but it will make it less for the audience.
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  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by flowerpower View Post
    Don't destroy the integrity of the sporting event, and the experience for the ticket-buying audience. Does anyone have suggestions of where to send feedback?
    You could always try the Feedback form on the Skate Canada web site -- here's their Contacts page for their National Office: http://www.skatecanada.ca/AboutUs/Co...S/Default.aspx
    From the Globe and Mail article linked from post #1:
    William Thompson, chief executive officer of Skate Canada, said the format will provide incentive for skaters to perform well to get into the final groups.
    Quote Originally Posted by RFOS View Post
    Splitting the event is just an awful idea. I was upset about it in its first incarnation. I feel bad for the skaters whose dream it was just to qualify to Nationals and whose experience just won't be the same if they compete (even leaving alone criticisms about the possibility of judging not be comparable between the early and later groups, or groups held on different days (an even WORSE idea!)).
    Yes, and I feel especially strongly about the part I bolded above.
    Last edited by Sylvia; 11-24-2011 at 03:03 PM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    You obviously didn't read what I wrote:

    Splitting up the schedule is stupid but don't blame TV; blame the organizers

    I'm just looking at the optics here. CBC ran a fine event last year that met everyone's needs. As soon as CTV takes over, we have these crazy schedule changes. Maybe I'm naive, but I have a hard time believing that Skate Canada is this dumb. Who wins? No one really.

    - Not the fans who are buying tickets to watch the events live.
    - Not the fans back home who want to see all the skaters, not just the top flight.
    - Not the athletes who can, and probably some will, legitimately claim that results are not fair because a different measuring stick was used for the final flight than the first 2 flights.
    - Not the athletes who put in personal bests and earned their trip to Canadians, but have no legitimate shot at making the final flight, and therefore are effectively told they don't matter and their accomplishments and development don't matter.
    - Not Skate Canada who can actually lose money by driving away their core fan base. (I don't think we have a problem filling seats at Canadians for any of the events. Now the house may only be filled for the Saturday night and some of Sunday.)
    - Not the casual viewer who may lose even further respect for the sport due to more potential "judging controversies". (I think this is the real reason for a general decline in interest in skating.)
    - Not the judges who will have a terrible time trying to keep the same mindset and standards from the first flight to the last flight. I think it will be an almost impossible task, and they will get the blame for the results if there are controversies. So they volunteer (only expenses are paid, I believe), do their best, but then still get blamed.

    So what's left? TV ratings. I think CTV can still get the same or more ratings by putting together a combination of taped and live shows. And they should show the entire events live on TSN or TSN2. It's the National Championships for goodness sake. Curling gets more airtime than skating? Seriously. If CTV doesn't really care, they should give the job back to CBC.

    This idea from William Thompson that the new schedule will motivate athletes is beyond ridiculous. Athletes who qualify for the Canadian championships are ALL motivated. The reality is that there are only so many spots in the top flight. Skaters don't give up a normal life, spend $100K+ by the time they get to a level where they can qualify for Canadians, put up with injuries, aches and pains, and work so many hours a day for 12 months of the year and not be motivated. Maybe at the lower levels some athletes are skating because their mommies and daddies want them to. By Junior, that pretty much gets sorted. Not all skaters are ready for the top flight this year. But they might be in 2, 3 or 4 years. Skate Canada should be looking for ways to promote and develop and encourage the developing skaters and teams, not create opportunities to demotivate them by minimizing their accomplishments.

  8. #48
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    Well, same thing can be said for the US. US Nationals was going on fine in its old format when ABC/ESPN had the event, then when NBC took over, suddenly events were getting split, the event was getting stretched out over 2 weekends, etc. It's all on the TV network in this case, and USFS hasn't much of a choice, because it's either give into their demands, or receive no TV coverage at all...

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    I'm just looking at the optics here. CBC ran a fine event last year that met everyone's needs. As soon as CTV takes over, we have these crazy schedule changes. Maybe I'm naive, but I have a hard time believing that Skate Canada is this dumb.
    I agree. In Bev Smith's words, SC CEO William Thompson "noted that similar schedules have been used elsewhere, but an ISU experiment of showing the earliest groups of singles skaters during the day and the finals after a long break at the world championships in Turin in 2010 was dropped after fans panned the idea."

    This suggests to me that SC knows full well that many people will be unhappy with this move. I wonder if they're supporting it this once (assuming CTV is the main driver), then may retract their support of this format, depending on the feedback they receive (and attendance at Nationals, etc.) People should speak up to SC if they are concerned, IMO.

  10. #50
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    I think I finally figured out why they wouldn't just continue as it's always been - a mix of taped and live coverage in prime time.

    The network can't afford it. The advertising revenues are down, so they want to contain not just the coverage, but the amount of time that their team needs to be onsite and at work.

    Instead of having cameramen, sound people, producers and their mobile truck etc around for several days, they can just show up on the last day, set up, do the job and go home.

    Sigh.

  11. #51
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    ^ I hear you, but CBC provided great coverage (full on BOLD, and taped/live on main network).

    And since CBC signed a new contract recently for televising the GP's and ISU championships (i.e. the non-domestic events), they must think it's worth their while (financially) to continue broadcasting figure skating.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    I am strongly against the splitting of events for live TV -- IMO, it can compromise the integrity of the judging and is unfair (even disrespectful) to the skaters who are forced to compete in the earlier session. As for the fans who pay a lot of money to attend Nationals in person, well, I'd better stop typing for now...
    The title of this thread is deeply misleading (with all due respect to Sylvia, who I respect quite a bit!) and it bugs me each time that I see it. The title implies that the thread will be a discussion of "why TV should dictate the splitting of events at [various] Nationals." Instead, the initial post completely ignores the very important question of WHY and is essentially a on the negatives associated with the splitting of events - and the rest of the thread follows. That's fine, but the thread title implies something else. Of course, there's a very concrete answer to that question, but it would have been an interesting discussion to probe the various nuances of that answers and its implications.

  13. #53

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    Yeah, I had trouble coming up with a thread title for this topic (I was in venting mode at the time)... what would you suggest? Maybe we can ask a nice moderator to change it.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5Ali3 View Post
    Of course, there's a very concrete answer to that question, but it would have been an interesting discussion to probe the various nuances of that answers and its implications.
    Can't we still discuss it? After all, thread drift happens all the time here at FSU.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    I think I finally figured out why they wouldn't just continue as it's always been - a mix of taped and live coverage in prime time.

    The network can't afford it. The advertising revenues are down, so they want to contain not just the coverage, but the amount of time that their team needs to be onsite and at work.

    Instead of having cameramen, sound people, producers and their mobile truck etc around for several days, they can just show up on the last day, set up, do the job and go home.

    Sigh.
    Great point. But under the new schedule they will still need to be there on Saturday and Sunday because finals take place both days. Remember the men are not subjected to this ridiculousness on Sunday. So there is no real benefit. I would also expect they will tape the Short, so they will want to be there already on Friday. The way that CBC used to manage this concern is they would show the whole event live on their sub channel, Bold, and scale down the moderating. It was beautiful because you could watch every skater, and it really was the event as it happened. There might be a few call in experts or guests during floods, but really just PJ, who really developed in the role and did a great job. For the slick coverage for prime time that would include live and taped, it was big names like Kurt, David, Debbie, etc. So again, no different than under this new crazy schedule. I also suspect that anyone having to be in Moncton on Saturday and Sunday will get paid for the day, not just for the few hours actually worked, since they can't work elsewhere as they normally would, being away from home. At that point, might as well get full benefit for the pay.

    Skate Canada needs to hire better marketing strategy people. They need to think bigger, outside the box, and modernize their focus to build the sport. There are some really good things coming through, but to promote the sport to non-fans, and really raise money for events and athlete development, they need to re-examine and re-focus. This is a Canadian championship. There should be no trouble with sponsors at the top level.

    CTV just needs to make skating a priority, and Skate Canada needs to do what is in the best interests of the sport. Doesn't CTV have Canadian content quotas to fill? If CTV can't handle it, they should give back the rights to CBC.

  15. #55

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    Before the last Olympics CTV said they wanted to model their coverage after US network coverage. I expect we're seeing more of that mindset here. It appears they only care about putting on a show as opposed to actually airing the competition. It's unfortunate that Skate Canada feels it's necessary to bend over backwards for a network that dumped them when times were tough. If CBC hadn't stepped up we wouldn't have had any figure skating coverage at all. I wonder how much Debbie Wilkes, with her strong ties to CTV, influenced this decision.

  16. #56

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    People in attendance can barrage the Skatebug folks with complaints.

    I will do that at gpf.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by WildRose View Post
    Before the last Olympics CTV said they wanted to model their coverage after US network coverage. I expect we're seeing more of that mindset here. It appears they only care about putting on a show as opposed to actually airing the competition. It's unfortunate that Skate Canada feels it's necessary to bend over backwards for a network that dumped them when times were tough. If CBC hadn't stepped up we wouldn't have had any figure skating coverage at all. I wonder how much Debbie Wilkes, with her strong ties to CTV, influenced this decision.
    I'm ok with them making a show for the main network if that helps build profile of the sport with non-fans, and makes them happy. They can accomplish this goal, AND they don't have to mess with the integrity of the competition, AND give us uber fans the whole event on one of their other channels. It's not that hard.

  18. #58
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    It's extremely unfair to the skaters and will really affect the integrity of the judging.

    TV networks would be extremely pissed if somebody who wasn't in the final group won or even got on the podium.

    Marking down skaters who skate early and marking up skaters who skate later happens anyway. With the events split into two and the tv network's expectations, it's going to be even worse.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by flowerpower View Post
    ^ I hear you, but CBC provided great coverage (full on BOLD, and taped/live on main network).

    And since CBC signed a new contract recently for televising the GP's and ISU championships (i.e. the non-domestic events), they must think it's worth their while (financially) to continue broadcasting figure skating.
    The BOLD coverage was excellent, but I can't imagine that Skate Canada was thrilled with the CBC main network coverage. The main network coverage was always on in the afternoon or at midnight, and there was no possibility of live coverage on Saturday night because of hockey. The CTV contract allows for more hours in primetime and more exposure on TSN, even if the scheduling sucks.

  20. #60

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    William Thompson, chief executive officer of Skate Canada, said the format will provide incentive for skaters to perform well to get into the final groups.
    OK, generally I respect William Thompson and the job he's done, but this is a really stupid thing to say. Skaters don't show up at Nationals planning to perform poorly. And IMHO this structure is going to make it very difficult for skaters to move out of that second group once they have been slotted in there.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

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