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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    Sorry, but you can't compare free skate construction in a system that had very few requirements to one in which there are a finite number of elements.
    In an athletic contest, yes, you can. Dude, I am a skater (or, more to the point, I was when I was little), and I only competed under 6.0 and equivalents as a kid. Now, maybe you can say it was different at an elite level, but when my coach made my programs, it was basically about two different things: going down the checklists of jumps and making sure I could get through landing all of them on one foot. Spins, spirals, footwork, "artistic" arm-wavey bits, etc, were all either requirements to get through, catch a rest, or places to show off to the judges the skills I personally happened to be really (relatively) good at. I was constrained by who I was competing against and sometimes by what level I was competing on, and all the other little girls seemed to have their programs put together in the same way. It wasn't really much different at the level of the national skaters from what I could see rubbernecking them when I was lucky enough to be on the same ice, they were just on a higher level all-around and better at more things.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubleflutz View Post
    So now he could do it as a choreo sequence and get like a guaranteed +3 GOE on it. I'm not really seeing the problem.

    Footworks and MITF mostly came into play as a way of demonstrating skills that weren't being used in competition after figures were dropped.
    That is absolute BS. Watch ANY free skate from this era and you will see plenty of MITF.

    Re: The Choreographed step sequence, I am thankful for this change, but it doesn't change the fact that this system does not allow a free program to be free. What if a skater wants to be gutsy like Midori Ito and throw in a 3A at the three-minute mark? Oops, you maxed out your jump passes already. What if I want to do a double salchow with arms over my head to add spanish flair to a musical change? Well, it your spin will probably not get a high level and you waste a jumping pass on an easy double. Again, what's so free about already knowing all of your elements before you even hear your music?

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    That is absolute BS. Watch ANY free skate from this era and you will see plenty of MITF.
    From what era? If you're talking about the era where figures were competed, that's a reeeeeeally long time. There definitely were not explicit MITF and footwork sections or elements in the same way, though.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
    This argument is again about personal preference. Fewer steps at top speed isn't necessarily better than slower, more intricate turns.
    Tell that to the criteria for level 4 steps. Maybe they won't take it personally

  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    Again, Daisuke is amazing, but I would love to see what he could do if just given the opportunity to FLY across the ice with wide sweeping steps, instead of so many stops and starts and always going up on the toe pick.
    Exactly. I agree with Janet and my biggest beef with COP (out of many) has to do with the awful, awful, awful, snail's pace "get every turn in in and let's pretend we're doing figures in the middle of a free program" footwork sequences.

    Sure, some skaters pull them off better than others but to me, they still suck.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubleflutz View Post
    From what era? If you're talking about the era where figures were competed, that's a reeeeeeally long time. There definitely were not explicit MITF and footwork sections or elements in the same way, though.
    I'm talking about the era WITH figures, since you said they only came into play after they were abolished. Have you ever watched Peggy, Dorothy, Lynn, Sumners, Kadavy, Thomas, etc...? They did beautiful MITF in their long programs while competing in figures. And why should they have to be done in "sections" anyway? That's just putting more restrictions on program construction. I used to love it when spirals and ina bauers and spread eagles would weave in and out of a program.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVH-UWB4EaM#t=2m38s

    Is it less complex? Yes, but IMO it demonstrates better skating and better run of the blade and is even more musical.
    Actually, now that I've watched it, how the heck is that more musical? He's off the beat, not that there's even much of one. He doesn't even throw his hands up in time to the music in the same way, although that's never impressed me as showing much "musicality" anyway. Sure, he's fast, but he looks kind of sloppy there, and there's not much connection of his feet to the music. It's kind of hard to tell with blurry Youtube video, but the actual edges look more precise to me in what I linked. For what it's worth, Stephane had much better use of the upper body, arms, and overall posture in 2010, although I guess it's fair enough to say that was just a matter of personal improvement rather than anything attributable to one system or another.

  8. #88
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    Correctly, decline of figure skating in US.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    And why should they have to be done in "sections" anyway? That's just putting more restrictions on program construction. I used to love it when spirals and ina bauers and spread eagles would weave in and out of a program.
    What? Having an explicit MITF section or footwork section doesn't mean you can't put those kind of moves in other parts of the program. Actually, in COP, you want to have those kind of moves throughout your program because you get a higher TR and CH score if you do. Having those sections as a required element just means that skaters can't just race around the rink or stand dead on the ice between jumping passes, which plenty of skaters during the post-figures timeframe actually did. Skaters had to at least make an effort to show off those skills in at least part of the program. As far as it goes, COP does more to encourage those things than post-figures 6.0.

    The point about figures-era programs was that those kind of things weren't an explicit requirement, as far as I'm aware. You were supposed to have a fast section, a slow section, and then another slow section, but that was mostly it as far as I know. Those kind of programs you can't really compare to later 6.0, which was just as focused on required elements as COP, or to COP itself, but between post-figures 6.0 and COP, they were both constrained in the sense that there were places you had to show off your skating skills in such a manner. Footwork/MITF in the era where it was a required element and leveled footwork in COP are analogous. They can be legitimately compared.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubleflutz View Post
    Actually, now that I've watched it, how the heck is that more musical? He's off the beat, not that there's even much of one. He doesn't even throw his hands up in time to the music in the same way, although that's never impressed me as showing much "musicality" anyway. Sure, he's fast, but he looks kind of sloppy there, and there's not much connection of his feet to the music. It's kind of hard to tell with blurry Youtube video, but the actual edges look more precise to me in what I linked. For what it's worth, Stephane had much better use of the upper body, arms, and overall posture in 2010, although I guess it's fair enough to say that was just a matter of personal improvement rather than anything attributable to one system or another.
    Not much of a beat? Without even pulling out my metronome, I can clock it at about 110 BPM. Speaking of the beat, he couldn't possibly be more on top of it.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubleflutz View Post
    What? Having an explicit MITF section or footwork section doesn't mean you can't put those kind of moves in other parts of the program. Actually, in COP, you want to have those kind of moves throughout your program because you get a higher TR and CH score if you do. Having those sections as a required element just means that skaters can't just race around the rink or stand dead on the ice between jumping passes, which plenty of skaters during the post-figures timeframe actually did. Skaters had to at least make an effort to show off those skills in at least part of the program. As far as it goes, COP does more to encourage those things than post-figures 6.0.

    The point about figures-era programs was that those kind of things weren't an explicit requirement, as far as I'm aware. You were supposed to have a fast section, a slow section, and then another slow section, but that was mostly it as far as I know. Those kind of programs you can't really compare to later 6.0, which was just as focused on required elements as COP, or to COP itself, but between post-figures 6.0 and COP, they were both constrained in the sense that there were places you had to show off your skating skills in such a manner. Footwork/MITF in the era where it was a required element and leveled footwork in COP are analogous. They can be legitimately compared.
    I was more thinking about spirals that would pop up out of nowhere, instead of in sequence form. And you say that more of these in a program gets a higher PCS score? What was Plushenko's PCS in 2010 again?

    In any case, I'm merely responding to your assertion the MITF only became a big deal to compensate for the loss of figures, which is completely inaccurate.

  12. #92
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    Palate cleanser... I give you arguably the most COP-friendly pre-COP program. EVER.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57AXUFZ_Vho

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    Not much of a beat? Without even pulling out my metronome, I can clock it at about 110 BPM.
    You have a metronome and you're confusing signature with BPM?

  14. #94
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    1. I don't agree that restrictions limit creativity. I'd argue the exact opposite, in fact. Poetry has restrictions in form and in some cases content, for example. Check out the Lars von Trier/Jorgen Leth film The Five Obstructions for a fuller exploration of that thesis.

    2. To me, the difference between 6.0 and COP is this: in 6.0, I read Proust in English. In COP, I learned French and read it in French. It's more work, but I find it more rewarding (presumably - I don't speak/read French well enough yet). Indeed, understanding the language of figure skating more has actually made me appreciate 6.0 programs from the past that I didn't appreciate.

    3. People say that the great program is rare. Well, isn't greatness rare by definition? I would love to see someone's list of great programs from any given season and see just how many more programs there are on it.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
    Palate cleanser... I give you arguably the most COP-friendly pre-COP program. EVER.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57AXUFZ_Vho
    1) We should have sent Tonya Harding instead based on nationals.
    2) That program should have been 1st or 2nd at worst.
    3) Too bad she got sick.
    4) None of this matters in the end because that program was AMAZING.

  16. #96
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    [QUOTE=Proustable;3377739]1. I don't agree that restrictions limit creativity. I'd argue the exact opposite, in fact. Poetry has restrictions in form and in some cases content, for example. Check out the Lars von Trier/Jorgen Leth film The Five Obstructions for a fuller exploration of that thesis.

    No one is saying there should be no guidelines, but tell me what is "free" about a program in which all of the scored elements are predetermined? Figure skating obviously needs structure, but I think we've gone way too far, particularly in the free skate.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubleflutz View Post
    You have a metronome and you're confusing signature with BPM?
    Do you mean the time signature, dear? That dictates, beats per MEASURE, not beats per minute. I'm saying the beat is so clearly audible that I can pick up the tempo in just a few measures.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
    Palate cleanser... I give you arguably the most COP-friendly pre-COP program. EVER.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57AXUFZ_Vho
    So lovely! Caryn was sadly so underrated as an Olympic eligible skater. I'll gladly take that and raise you this (another very underrated skater by the judges): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w872zjNfzY

  19. #99
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    [QUOTE=Triple Butz;3377762]
    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    1. I don't agree that restrictions limit creativity. I'd argue the exact opposite, in fact. Poetry has restrictions in form and in some cases content, for example. Check out the Lars von Trier/Jorgen Leth film The Five Obstructions for a fuller exploration of that thesis.

    No one is saying there should be no guidelines, but tell me what is "free" about a program in which all of the scored elements are predetermined? Figure skating obviously needs structure, but I think we've gone way too far, particularly in the free skate.
    The placement of the elements relative to each other, the transitions/choreography in between the elements, the way the elements work with the music, the music, the costume, which elements to include based on individual ability.

  20. #100
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    [QUOTE=Proustable;3377781]
    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post

    The placement of the elements relative to each other, the transitions/choreography in between the elements, the way the elements work with the music, the music, the costume, which elements to include based on individual ability.
    But basically, everybody is trying to rearrange pieces of the same picture...rather than create their own picture. Can it still be creative? Yes, but I find it limiting.

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