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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seerek View Post
    Here's the thing - how can those attributes that Janet alluded to be integrated in Code of Points (if at all)?
    Most of them already are, she's just completely ignorant or faking it for the sake of dramatic effect. To wit:

    Here is a tiny partial list of audience pleasing skating skills that cannot be measured: smiles (P/E, possibly IN); pointed toe (P/E); stretched leg (P/E); line of body (P/E); flowing true edges (SS, spiral and lift level criteria, footwork GOE, level criteria and GOE for most dance levels) and change-of-edges (SS, level criteria esp. for ice dance, footwork GOE); long controlled glide that looks like it floats (spiral GOE)-- to music; footwork that makes the music come alive throughout the performance (IN, footwork GOE); an edge or turn that "whispers" (instead of ripping or grinding), the excitement of a classic sit, change sit, change sit, change sit spin [b]to exacting music (SS, spin GOE); a long blurred spin with musical crescendo (IN, spin GOE, spin level criteria).
    Every single one of those things is already covered in the COP. Either she doesn't know what she's talking about, or she's prevaricating. The only thing in her list that's not already considered under the judging system is the "sound quality" of the edges, and I would dispute her belief that silent edges are automatically better than growly ones. Scratchy edges are awful, yes, but they're a product of bad skating skills, and already penalized.

    You could certainly argue that those qualities deserve to make up a higher overall portion of the score, or that judging panels are not always using the rules as written correctly to reflect what happens on the ice, but all those things are already in the COP, and should be taken into consideration when the system is properly applied.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by jl View Post
    So then why aren't poetry, music, dance included in the modern Olympics? Because the definition of Olympic has also changed. Maybe they should be included but then you're trying to completely reword the definition of Olympic. As such, I don't think the historic definition of Olympic need necessarily apply. If it did, I wouldn't be averse to having X-Factor, the Olympic event. So why would brushing up on Olympic history apply?

    And "premier event" does not mean that it's a sport, either. Arguably, the premier event of all Olympics are the opening and closing ceremonies, because they are the most watched and also are the most universal since all people are allowed to be a participant. They're not sportive to me, either, but are perhaps the most poignant events since it is representative of a celebration of all peoples.

    I don't think that you can separate yourself from holism if you evaluate figure skating, nor should you, but I think you need to be able to break down the whole experience into collective parts. The ability of figure skating to be athletic and demand precision, combined with the requirement to present these abilities, can't be discounted. That being said, the breakdown in 6.0 appears to me to be more arbitrary, because even technically you could be "perfect", which isn't really possible given that you should be able to exceed the bounds. While you can point to PCS in COP in the same way, I think it is a case of where the PCS has to be ascribed on such a scale but the TES is decoupled, which to me, makes it easier for people to determine at least, on one perspective, what made a skate "better" than the other.

    The other question that I think COP better addresses is the SP/FS arbitrariness that sometimes happened in figure skating. Technically, you could end up so many spots behind first place for one error in the SP, but even if you outskated everyone (e.g. everyone else falls on every other element or forgets programs or whatever), if you don't finish X spots above first in the FS, you can't win. I believe that COP may afford too much equality between the SP and FS so far (since there is the argument the SP is a mini-FS now), but it at least affords the potential for someone who clearly outdid everyone on the second day to make up for their potential shortfall in the SP (Sandhu at SC comes to mind).

    Figure skating is a competitive athletic event. So is speed typing, because without certain physical traits (hand agility, physical endurance, etc) you can't be as good as others. Maybe it's a sport too, but I don't think it fits the spectrum. That being said, I don't know where the distinctive line then exists by your words.
    So you're saying that figure skating wasn't a sport before CoP?

    As I said before, I've never seen a definition of sport that says, "All results must be completely absolute and objective." So, basically you're just going on your own personal feelings.

    Yes, it's great that comebacks can happen, but what happened to the "do or die" element of the sp? Now, you can fall three times in the short and still win gold in the free? I used to love getting nervous for skaters to see if they could put together a clean short under extreme pressure. It was exciting. Now, it doesn't really matter. A minor stumble, or a two-foot landing? Big deal, you're only 2 points out of 1st place.

    Speed typing is a competitive event? I've never seen it packaged that way with an audience and a medal ceremony. If someone were to put it together in such a way that it was enjoyable for enough people to watch, then sure it can become a major sporting event, however unlikely. There are many sports that don't seem very athletic or very interesting to me (curling) but that doesn't mean they aren't sports.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    Those of us who bemoan the loss of beauty in FS are not unable to do math. Several people here have acted like we're morons if we don't like COP. I understand if one skater gets more points than another, (s)he will win. And I don't think 6.0 was a perfect system either. But COP has plenty of problems of its own, AND the result is loss of some of the really beautiful moves in skating while maintaining the cheating aka holding up certain skaters thru use of PCS which at this point is completely meaningless.

    How many points would a really beautiful skid spiral get? Probably none at all & would only count as a transition. How long has it been since you've seen one?
    Agreed.

    Also, where some are saying the 6.0 system was merely creating placements, that isn't entirely correct. ISU did define 6.0 as faultless and perfect. Unfortunately, that definition was abused when judges boxed themselves in or gave scores for programs with mistakes.

    For me, part of the problem with the current system is PCS being made up of 5 components versus the 6.0 format that had only one. I know it is a redundant exercise comparing the two, but you have to wonder how Koster's free skate at TEB with only 3 triples would have been rewarded under the previous system. She really shouldn't have got 119+ for that skate.

    I do miss the drama of a simple layback or blur spin.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubleflutz View Post
    Most of them already are, she's just completely ignorant or faking it for the sake of dramatic effect. To wit:



    Every single one of those things is already covered in the COP. Either she doesn't know what she's talking about, or she's prevaricating. The only thing in her list that's not already considered under the judging system is the "sound quality" of the edges, and I would dispute her belief that silent edges are automatically better than growly ones. Scratchy edges are awful, yes, but they're a product of bad skating skills, and already penalized.

    You could certainly argue that those qualities deserve to make up a higher overall portion of the score, or that judging panels are not always using the rules as written correctly to reflect what happens on the ice, but all those things are already in the COP, and should be taken into consideration when the system is properly applied.

    But it's not being judged that way. When you do your combination spin, do you taylor your positions and changes to match the music, or do you reuse the same positions and timings in all of your programs because they reach level 4?

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    Those of us who bemoan the loss of beauty in FS are not unable to do math. Several people here have acted like we're morons if we don't like COP. I understand if one skater gets more points than another, (s)he will win. And I don't think 6.0 was a perfect system either. But COP has plenty of problems of its own, AND the result is loss of some of the really beautiful moves in skating
    while maintaining the cheating aka holding up certain skaters thru use of PCS which at this point is completely meaningless.
    I agree that the new system hasn't eradicated that tendency. The new judging system hasn't solved that problem. But nor did it cause the problem in the first place. I think it does ameliorate it.

    And I also don't think "holding up" skaters with established reputations for excellence is always or even usually "cheating." I think it's often justified in the sense that the better skaters deserve the higher scores even when not at their best (i.e., it's not so much the judges holding them up as their basic skill level), and even when undeserved it's often unconscious on the part of the judges.

    How many points would a really beautiful skid spiral get? Probably none at all & would only count as a transition. How long has it been since you've seen one?
    How often did we see them under 6.0 either.
    Robin Cousins did it beautifully. That was 30+ years ago. Only a handful of other skaters ever did it in the decades following, and not as beautifully.

    If done beautifully now, as a transition, maybe it could add as much as a full point to the PCS, at least with the long program PCS factoring. If done just adequately, it would add less.

    I guess the real question is how to quantify the parts of the sport that are easily quantifiable, fit the more qualitative aspects of performance and assessment into the scoring as well, and set up the system to reward beauty (including beautiful basic stroking) and coherence of the whole as much as or more than the individual parts.

    How can the system move forward from where it is now in order to do that better than it does now? I don't think throwing it out completely and simply going back to an old system that had its own problems is the right answer.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    But it's not being judged that way. When you do your combination spin, do you taylor your positions and changes to match the music, or do you reuse the same positions and timings in all of your programs because they reach level 4?
    Some skaters under COP do actually time their spins to the music, and are (usually, when the judging is good) rewarded for it. Some don't. Are you going to argue that every single program skated under 6.0 was created first and foremost as an artistic endeavor, and every skater was interpreting the music the entire time through? The COP can measure and reward those qualities when they are present in a program. Janet Lynn was claiming it could not, and she is factually dead wrong on that account.

  7. #67
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    Hopefully, both systems created champions and memorable performances.

    Thanks to fans and Youtube, we can enjoy skaters like Janet Lynn and Robin Cousins again and again.

    Using the current format, stars like Virtue and Moir have also been able to create signature pieces. Their Diana Krall / Temptation FD in Moscow was the highlight of the event for me.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by doubleflutz View Post
    Are you going to argue that every single program skated under 6.0 was created first and foremost as an artistic endeavor, and every skater was interpreting the music the entire time through?
    That must be it! I never saw any 6.0 programs not worthy of artistic endeavor. Refrigerator breaks didn't count because I wasn't watching. Dick Button can attest to that.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubleflutz View Post
    Some skaters under COP do actually time their spins to the music, and are (usually, when the judging is good) rewarded for it. Some don't. Are you going to argue that every single program skated under 6.0 was created first and foremost as an artistic endeavor, and every skater was interpreting the music the entire time through? The COP can measure and reward those qualities when they are present in a program. Janet Lynn was claiming it could not, and she is factually dead wrong on that account.

    No, of course not. But you can't argue that spins and footwork have become much less a part of the choreography and instead of being an interpretive element they are more often tricks that get points.

    Put yourself in the skaters shoes. If you're trying to create an expressive free program which do you prefer?

    Situation A: Limited to 3 spins, scored individually which must meet several requirements in terms of entry, length, and positions to get maximum points that accentuate the music.

    Situation B: Must perform some kind of layback spin and a combination spin of your choosing and any other spins you desire that accentuate the music.

    As an artist, I just can't stand to see creativity squashed and I'm not convinced that the "criteria" for levels actually makes the skating more difficult in many cases. For example, a sit-spin on a wonky edge.

    Show me a CoP step sequence with the freedom of this one:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZD_N4FY3B0#t=4m05s

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    Skating under CoP has become inaccessible. You said it yourself....CoP is understandable if you take the time to study the numbers. I don't know why it is so hard to understand that most fans don't want to study numbers. They just want to enjoy the competition. A less complex system would have served the sport better.
    Couldn't have said it better myself.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    Show me a CoP step sequence with the freedom of this one:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZD_N4FY3B0#t=4m05s
    CHALLENGE ACCEPTED AND ANSWERED, GOOD SIR:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4k2Eu7kpAU&t=1m27s

    Check that shit out, LEVEL FOUR COP STEP SEQUENCE IN THE HOUSE! None of this "choreo" nonsense, that shit was legit.

    Now, if you try and bust out the lame and tired excuse like "Stephane[/Yuna/Jeff Buttle/Mao/Daisuke/V&M/TEB pidgeon] is the exception he[/she/they/it] would have been a True Artiste under any system! You can't use him[/her/them/it] as an example of COP!", I'm going to hold up Surya Bonaly as a true exemplar of 6.0 skating.

    It's not the system. It will never be the system. It's the skaters and their coaches and choreographers.

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    Show me a CoP step sequence with the freedom of this one:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZD_N4FY3B0#t=4m05s
    Here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dy8Ce4NCNns#t=1m20s

    And this one will put most 6.0 footwork seq in shame

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8pt3Q-J5WU#t=1m40s
    Last edited by luenatic; 11-22-2011 at 12:19 AM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubleflutz View Post
    CHALLENGE ACCEPTED AND ANSWERED, GOOD SIR:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4k2Eu7kpAU&t=1m27s

    Check that shit out, LEVEL FOUR COP STEP SEQUENCE IN THE HOUSE! None of this "choreo" nonsense, that shit was legit.
    Not bad, if only it weren't twice as slow.

    ETA: Look at how fast and musical he was before CoP:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVH-UWB4EaM#t=2m38s

    Is it less complex? Yes, but IMO it demonstrates better skating and better run of the blade and is even more musical.

    It's not the system. It will never be the system. It's the skaters and their coaches and choreographers.
    Sorry, but you can't compare free skate construction in a system that had very few requirements to one in which there are a finite number of elements. That's like telling Beethoven he only has x amount of measures to work with, or telling Picasso that he only has x amount of colors to paint with. The more restrictions you provide, the more limited the creativity and expression become.
    Last edited by Triple Butz; 11-22-2011 at 12:46 AM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by luenatic View Post
    Again, Daisuke is amazing, but I would love to see what he could do if just given the opportunity to FLY across the ice with wide sweeping steps, instead of so many stops and starts and always going up on the toe pick.

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    I really enjoyed Janet's rant as she echo's my thoughts completely. I have a feeling that there will always be two camps on this issue. The scientist/artist argument lives on in many arenas and advocates of each are rarely converted. I think the best we can do is identify those aspects we dislike in each system. For me all COP programs look alike, the footwork is agonizingly unpleasant, and my biggest problem is that for me it is the rare COP program that is exudes musicality and passion. It also seems to me we have two technical programs - one shorter than the other - really don't see the difference. And I still am stuck in the top three after the technical program being in contention for the gold - just always made sense - skaters show they are great at the basics - then blow us away with creative artistry and attempted perfection in the long. Bugs me no end when a skater gets 3re 4th 5th or 6th or so in the short and then wins or is on the podium. Can't adjust and I always think they did not deserve to win. Id like to elaborate on what I like about COP but I can't think of anything.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    ETA: Look at how fast and musical he was before CoP:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVH-UWB4EaM#t=2m38s

    Is it less complex? Yes, but IMO it demonstrates better skating and better run of the blade and is even more musical.
    So now he could do it as a choreo sequence and get like a guaranteed +3 GOE on it. I'm not really seeing the problem.

    On the other hand, would you like me to start pulling examples of step sequences under 6.0 from the early/mid 90s? Because you're still not demonstrating any point other than "Stephane is a really good skater who excels at footwork". If you don't like convoluted step sequences, okay, fair enough, but that does not mean every step sequence under 6.0 was uniformly higher in quality than those under COP. 6.0 lasted a long, loooong time, and footwork itself was a fairly late innovation. Back when figures were competed, there mostly weren't explicit footwork sequences in the same way. Footworks and MITF mostly came into play as a way of demonstrating skills that weren't being used in competition after figures were dropped. I would assert that actually, most 6.0 era footworks were objectively crappier than those under COP, because COP made skaters pay some attention to them to get points, and to skating skills in general. Under 6.0 in the quad/ubiquitous male triple axel/hard triples for ladies/triple-triple era, most footworks blew. You remember the good ones, and for good reason, but the bad and average ones were in my opinion much worse than the bad and average ones under COP. Sometimes they were worse in different ways, but I think if you're arguing they were the same or even better, you're cherry-picking what you choose as examples.

  17. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    snip ...
    Skating under CoP has become inaccessible. You said it yourself....CoP is understandable if you take the time to study the numbers. I don't know why it is so hard to understand that most fans don't want to study numbers. They just want to enjoy the competition. A less complex system would have served the sport better.
    I did not say that COP is understandable only if you take the time to study the numbers but that I better understand why someone got better marks.

    I can see that a total of one person is higher or lower than the current top position mark. If in the short, the marks for skater A > skater B then skater A is in a higher position for that portion of the competition. If in the free, the marks for skater B > skater A, then I know that skater B is ahead of skater A in that portion of the comp. Then if I wait a bit longer, they tell me that the total for skater A > the total for skater B then I know that skater A places higher than skater B. Hmmm, that doesn't seem very difficult to understand, at least for me compared to the 6.0 era.

    Back then, if skater A got marks of 5.0-5.6 and 5.2-5.8 and skater B also got 5.0-5.6 and 5.2-5.8, I'm sitting there trying to figure out WTH that means. After sitting in a fog for a while, finally "someone" figures out who is in what place. I'm sitting there confused because the 3rd and 4th placed teams just got flipped. HUH???

    I also read that the marks are only placeholders. Then why get so excited if you got 6.0 which some say supposed meant perfection. Yet I recall too many times skater(s) getting 6.0 for programs with mistakes. I'd be sitting there totally confused with why someone got a mark for perfect when they weren't. Ohhh wait, those marks are just place holders? Yep, had me often confused.

    With COP all you need to know is what the current top score is and how much the next competitor needs to pass them. Simple subtraction in my eyes.
    Crazy about sports!

  18. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    Sorry, but you can't compare free skate construction in a system that had very few requirements to one in which there are a finite number of elements. That's like telling Beethoven he only has x amount of measures to work with, or telling Picasso that he only has x amount of colors to paint with. The more restrictions you provide, the more limited the creativity and expression become.
    Or telling Shakespeare he can only have fourteen lines in a sonnet?
    Charter member of the "We Always Believed in Ashley" Club and the "We Believe in Ricky" Club

  19. #79
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    taf2002 and PDilemma. I'm not insinuating that you can't do math. Just pointing out that the casual viewers wouldn't care at all how the grand total scores are arrived. People will be puzzled at the placement, sure, which happened a lot under 6.0 as well. If they are interested in finding out why so and so is scored as such, they can now refer to the master protocol to find out why before blaming it on politics/corruption right away (not that there isn't any ... but most cases the result actually makes sense (in singles anyway ) if you take the time to go through the protocol). It would also help if the American commentators actually introduced CoP when it first came along and present skating from a more technical perspective instead of personal preferences ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    Again, Daisuke is amazing, but I would love to see what he could do if just given the opportunity to FLY across the ice with wide sweeping steps, instead of so many stops and starts and always going up on the toe pick.
    This argument is again about personal preference. Fewer steps at top speed isn't necessarily better than slower, more intricate turns.

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