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  1. #261

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I agree with all of this except the statement that 6.0 was all about deductions.

    In the short program there were mandatory deductions for various kinds of errors, similar to the negative GOEs now.

    In both short and long programs there were deductions for rule violations (e.g., illegal moves, illegal music, illegal costume, running over or under the time allowance, repeating too many triple jumps in the LP or repeating the same triple without a combination).

    But those deductions were not subtracted from a perfect 6.0, except for the very very best skaters in the world at the time who would have been worthy of 6.0 if not for those SP errors or rule violations.

    For the vast majority of skaters, the judges had to come up with a base mark that essentially represented in their minds "How good was this performance, on a scale of 0 to 6 where 0 is not skated, 3 is mediocre, 4 is good, 5 is very good, and 6 is perfect and flawless?"

    Then if they decided for each program that this skating overall, taking into account the basic skating and the difficulty of the elements and the success or failure thereof, was about halfway between good and very good, they could score 4.5 for technical merit. And if they thought it was better than that in presentation they'd give a tenth or a couple tenths more than 4.5 for the second mark, vice versa if they thought the presentation was not as good.

    Then they would take deductions if any deductions were warranted. In short programs, some usually were. In long programs, only rarely.

    But the skaters and the spectators never knew exactly which aspects of the skating each judge or the judges as a group considered in setting their base marks and which they ignored, and they didn't know exactly which deductions were taken. (Maybe some of the rule violation deductions like time deductions or illegal element deductions taken by the referee were publicized?)
    By saying 6.0 was about deductions means that whilst a high base mark rewarded skaters, it really didn't give feedback on what skaters did well.

    A skater like Lucinda Ruh, whilst she had beautiful spins, musicality and presentation, was never going to be up there (I think the highest she finished at worlds was 12) because her jumps were just not up to the same standard. Under IJS her spins would be recognised and given the credit they deserved.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Under IJS her spins would be recognised and given the credit they deserved.
    Not buying it.

    I actually think Lambiel's spins were much better under 6.0 that COP, which seems to really reward difficult positions over speed or centering, and certainly placement with choreo. Irina's endless homage to the beilman was what cop produced. Lambiel still had to master that 3x and 4t or he'd get nowhere. It's not like he won worlds with the same skating he was doing in 02. He didn't come in 4th at his first euros with no 3x because 6.0 ignored spins and didn't recognize their merit. Like all skaters from beginning to end, he won by becoming as close to a complete package as possible. Jokes about Kostner aside, no lady is going to medal at worlds this year with nothing harder than a 3s and 3t and all level 4 spins.

  3. #263

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    Well, yes, but I would say that was an effect of not rewarding the spins as much as the jumps in the base marks rather than about subtracting anything from a higher starting point. Deducting = subtracting.

  4. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    A skater like Lucinda Ruh, whilst she had beautiful spins, musicality and presentation, was never going to be up there (I think the highest she finished at worlds was 12) because her jumps were just not up to the same standard. Under IJS her spins would be recognised and given the credit they deserved.
    Level 4's on her spins and +3 GOE for those spins probably wouldn't do Ruh full justice, given the substantial difference between her best spins and those of skaters such as Czisny, Nagasu, and Zhang, who are some of the best spinners to have competed under the new system.

  5. #265

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    By saying 6.0 was about deductions means that whilst a high base mark rewarded skaters, it really didn't give feedback on what skaters did well.

    A skater like Lucinda Ruh, whilst she had beautiful spins, musicality and presentation, was never going to be up there (I think the highest she finished at worlds was 12) because her jumps were just not up to the same standard. Under IJS her spins would be recognised and given the credit they deserved.
    Well, yes, but I would say that was an effect of not rewarding the spins as much as the jumps in the base marks rather than about subtracting anything from a higher starting point. Deducting = subtracting.

    Quote Originally Posted by berthesghost View Post
    Not buying it.

    I actually think Lambiel's spins were much better under 6.0 that COP, which seems to really reward difficult positions over speed or centering, and certainly placement with choreo.
    Not sure I'd agree in general, although it did take him a while to adjust to the higher levels because he was injured and skipping the GP during the first few years of IJS.

    Irina's endless homage to the beilman was what cop produced.
    Yes, at first. Then TPTB decided that overusing one feature wasn't what they wanted so they adjusted the rules accordingly. I'm sure there will be still more adjustments to come.

    He didn't come in 4th at his first euros with no 3x because 6.0 ignored spins and didn't recognize their merit.
    I suspect that basic skating skills had at least as much to do with it as spins. That's certainly what stood out to me at the time.

    Skating clean when others faltered also helped.

    Like all skaters from beginning to end, he won by becoming as close to a complete package as possible.
    Yup. Always true under any system.

    Jokes about Kostner aside, no lady is going to medal at worlds this year with nothing harder than a 3s and 3t and all level 4 spins.
    Time will tell. I doubt 3S and 3T will do it -- even Lepisto and Kostner had one harder triple when they medaled in 2010 and 2011. Even three different triples won't do it if others are doing four, five or six, plus repeats, and skating clean with good skills. But trying harder triples and losing credit to falls and downgrades won't get it done either. So the question is how many ladies will be able to bring it all when it counts. If at least three do so, then that's what it'll take to medal.

  6. #266

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    Last edited by topaz; 11-28-2011 at 11:37 PM.
    "“My bronze feels like gold,” said the bronze medalist Carolina Kostner

  7. #267

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    A skater like Lucinda Ruh, whilst she had beautiful spins, musicality and presentation, was never going to be up there (I think the highest she finished at worlds was 12) because her jumps were just not up to the same standard. Under IJS her spins would be recognised and given the credit they deserved.
    You are so right. For example, the best female spinner competiting today is Alissa C.

    Alissa consistently scores 4 to 6 pts more with her +GOE on her spins than the other skaters.

    For example, at SA Carolina K scored the following on her spins.

    Caro's base value for all spins: 9.20 w/GOE= total score of 10.70

    Alissa's base value for all spins: 11.40 w/GOE=total score of 16.52

    Also, Alissa's spins werent' at their best at SA too.
    "“My bronze feels like gold,” said the bronze medalist Carolina Kostner

  8. #268

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    So consistently better spins across the whole program is worth approximately one triple jump per program.

  9. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by topaz View Post
    You are so right. For example, the best female spinner competiting today is Alissa C.

    Alissa consistently scores 4 to 6 pts more with her +GOE on her spins than the other skaters.

    For example, at SA Carolina K scored the following on her spins.

    Caro's base value for all spins: 9.20 w/GOE= total score of 10.70

    Alissa's base value for all spins: 11.40 w/GOE=total score of 16.52

    Also, Alissa's spins werent' at their best at SA too.
    I love how people think that spins count for so much and great spinners are finally getting their due. Then how come Miki Ando and Yuna Kim often outscored Czisny and Nagasu in spins?

    I love Ruh, but she lacked the difficult triples and the ones she did land were usually >> and two-footed. I think her placements would have been about the same in this system.

    What was great about Ruh's spinning was that, in addition to being difficult, they were GORGEOUS, fast, and fit the music perfectly. In this system, the quality of the position and the setting to the music don't really matter- just check off the boxes to get your levels.

  10. #270
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    There is indeed the possibility that Lucinda Ruh's >> and >'s on her triple attempts would have negated any +3's she would have earned on spins. So yes, I agree with the theory that her placements would have likely been the same in either system.

    I've always been of the opinion that the Grade of Executions are actually more manipulative than Component Scores, especially in the long programs where there are 13/14 elements. Ando/Kim probably should be getting 0's and 1's at the most if Czisny and Nagasu get 2's and 3's. The higher level is fine if the features are met - but don't "artificially" give high GOE just because the skater achieved a high level...

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