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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allskate View Post
    Yes, but how does that explain why shelters and rescue organizations cause the puppy mill problem, which is what cruisin seemed to be saying when she said rescue organizations keep the puppy mill business alive?
    You misunderstood me, a little. I was not blaming the shelters or rescue organizations. I said it's a catch 22 situation. The way, in which, shelters/rescue help to perpetuate puppy mills, is that when people get dogs from those organizations, they do not support ethical breeders. Also, because so many shelters/rescues exist (and that is because they are needed), there are people who impulse buy dogs in pet stores, knowing they can get rid of them if the dog becomes inconvenient. The shelters/rescues do nothing wrong, but they do indirectly keep pet stores and puppy mills going. As I said above, we need STRONG legislation to shut down puppy mills and backyard breeders. It is morally wrong to breed dogs that are not healthy, knowing that the puppies will probably be born to suffer. How can this be allowed in our society? As was said already, if puppy mills and backyard breeding were outlawed, we wouldn't need shelters/rescues. If breeding were left to reputable breeders, the breeder and or the breed organizations would take care of re-homing dogs that cannot be kept. And sometimes dogs cannot be kept for legitimate reasons, an owner passes away, an owner gets sick, a child develops allergies. If a dog could only be gotten through breeders, fewer people would impulse buy, the breeder would be able to educate and be more certain the dog would fit into their life.

    I was in a local mall pet store a few years ago. I was waiting for my baby Cav to be old enough for me to bring home. I wandered in, out of curiosity. They had a Cav there. The dog's markings were not nice, which is really unimportant. The dog was far too small for it's age, again, not too important. But, it was "snapping at flies" that were not there. It had a severe neurological disorder (among other problems). They wanted close to $1,000 for this puppy. You just know that whoever bought the dog would have no clue how sick it was. And that it would probably die, leaving the family devastated, or it would wind up in a shelter. Obviously, even with diligent breeding, genetic problems can occur. But breeders who knowingly or recklessly breed dogs with problems, leave them in tiny crates in unsanitary conditions, don't get them medical attention, etc. should have to deal with cruelty to animals charges. Dogs give unconditional love, they deserve the same back. Just an aside: my dog never stops wagging his tail. I ask him "are you a happy dog" (I know he doesn't literally understand that) and he twirls around and jumps on me and licks my face. I wish for all dogs to be that happy.

    Not entirely on topic, but this is a very interesting article for anyone who loves dogs:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...790269560.html
    Last edited by cruisin; 11-22-2011 at 02:14 PM.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    You misunderstood me, a little. I was not blaming the shelters or rescue organizations. I said it's a catch 22 situation. The way, in which, shelters/rescue help to perpetuate puppy mills, is that when people get dogs from those organizations, they do not support ethical breeders. Also, because so many shelters/rescues exist (and that is because they are needed), there are people who impulse buy dogs in pet stores, knowing they can get rid of them if the dog becomes inconvenient. The shelters/rescues do nothing wrong, but they do indirectly keep pet stores and puppy mills going. As I said above, we need STRONG legislation to shut down puppy mills and backyard breeders. It is morally wrong to breed dogs that are not healthy, knowing that the puppies will probably be born to suffer. How can this be allowed in our society? As was said already, if puppy mills and backyard breeding were outlawed, we wouldn't need shelters/rescues. If breeding were left to reputable breeders, the breeder and or the breed organizations would take care of re-homing dogs that cannot be kept. And sometimes dogs cannot be kept for legitimate reasons, an owner passes away, an owner gets sick, a child develops allergies. If a dog could only be gotten through breeders, fewer people would impulse buy, the breeder would be able to educate and be more certain the dog would fit into their life.
    Okay, I understand your argument better. Unfortunately, even without shelters, I think some people would still impulse buy. The moron who sees Paris Hilton with a chihuhua still will buy one as an accessory without even thinking about whether it will work out and whether they can take it to the pounds.

    I couldn't agree with you more about the need to shut down puppy mills. Unfortunately, I think we would still need shelters if that happened. There are ferral animals. There are people who just abandon their pets. There are people who wouldn't return the dogs to the breeder.

    I understand the need for good breeders versus puppy mills. However, especially given the situation we already have -- there are so many dogs being put down right now or without homes -- I really hope that people will adopt dogs from shelters and rescue organizations. It would be nice to live in a world where there was no need for shelters and rescue organizations, but that isn't the case and isn't likely to be the case in the future.

    ETA: I do think the situation could be improved, though. I wish there were more stories in the media exposing the puppy mills. Those kinds of stories do have an impact. We've seen it happen in the chicken/egg industry with some states banning certain abusive practices and McDonalds ending its relationship with an abusive egg producer. It would be especially useful at this time of the year when people are considering pets as Christmas presents.
    Last edited by Allskate; 11-22-2011 at 05:08 PM.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allskate View Post
    Okay, I understand your argument better. Unfortunately, even without shelters, I think some people would still impulse buy. The moron who sees Paris Hilton with a chihuhua still will buy one as an accessory without even thinking about whether it will work out and whether they can take it to the pounds.

    I couldn't agree with you more about the need to shut down puppy mills. Unfortunately, I think we would still need shelters if that happened. There are ferral animals. There are people who just abandon their pets. There are people who wouldn't return the dogs to the breeder.

    I understand the need for good breeders versus puppy mills. However, especially given the situation we already have -- there are so many dogs being put down right now or without homes -- I really hope that people will adopt dogs from shelters and rescue organizations.
    I do agree that there will always be some ned for shelters and rescue. I know they will never be unnecessary, much as I wish that were the case. I think it is a two stage process. We eliminate puppy mills/backyard breeders and enact licensing for breeding. Over time that would significantly reduce the numbers of dogs that need shelter. Once those numbers are significantly reduced, people would be more likely to seek out reputable breeders. I don't understand why people buy dogs that might come from a puppy mill. I don't understand why they would support that heinous practice or suffer with a dog that is sick.

    My second Cav, developed mitral valve disease. We got him through a very reputable breeder, but it was a distant gene that unluckily showed up. The poor thing went into congestive heart failure 3 times over the 4 years he lived after being diagnosed. He was on lasix and prinivil, for fluid retention and blood pressure. I wouldn't have traded him for anything, I loved him. But, it was painful to see him, when he got sick. Eventually died from kidney failure, due to the lasix. Knowing how painful it is to see an animal you love suffer, why not at least try to start out with the best health potential you can?

  4. #84
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    Well, with feral animals, especially cats...really the only rational thing to do is euthanize them. (I feel sorry for people in this state--Michigan, last I heard, had legislation requiring shelter animals be euthed with chemicals, not gassed, which is hard on the vets doing it, not to mention time-consuming.) *I* just spend $250 cleaning up and fixing a semi-feral cat, but most people won't and I'm sort of taming him.

    I don't support licensing for ALL breeding. If I have a bitch and want to breed it for my own purposes, I shouldn't have to go through a state application. (Not to mention it would be impossible to control in cats without banning outdoor cats and having manatory destruction of unaltered outdoor animals.) But if you want to sell to the public or retail markets, I do think there should be a state ag inspection required. Commercial breeders who fail inspections (unhealthy animals, too many for the kennels, etc) get their animals confiscated and altered/adopted or destroyed.

    I think in Michigan we don't really have pet stores selling any more--but I know Indiana does, and I was stunned when I went to Vegas and they had PUPPY STORES. I asked my friend I was visiting if that was really a store that sold puppies and she said it was. Seriously. They're not getting all their puppies from show or working-qualilty lines, I'll bet...

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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    I don't understand why people buy dogs that might come from a puppy mill. I don't understand why they would support that heinous practice or suffer with a dog that is sick.
    Although more people know about the puppy mill/pet shop link now than did back when I was younger, it's still not something that many (perhaps most?) people know about. I think continuing efforts to educate around this issue can continue to help increase awareness.
    And so, dear Lord, it is with deep sadness that we turn over to you this young woman, whose dream to ride on a giant swan resulted in her death. Maybe it is your way of telling us... to buy American.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    I don't support licensing for ALL breeding. If I have a bitch and want to breed it for my own purposes, I shouldn't have to go through a state application. (Not to mention it would be impossible to control in cats without banning outdoor cats and having manatory destruction of unaltered outdoor animals.) But if you want to sell to the public or retail markets, I do think there should be a state ag inspection required. Commercial breeders who fail inspections (unhealthy animals, too many for the kennels, etc) get their animals confiscated and altered/adopted or destroyed.
    Would you support mandatory health testing, in order to breed a dog? If you have a dog that has a congenital problem, you probably would not want to breed it. But, if it's something that's not advanced enough to see, testing would alert you.

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    As an update, we did end up adopting Freddie the Beagle from the animal shelter. To show how well he has meshed with our family, and what a good fit he is, we actually managed to exhaust him - people have told me this isn't easy to do with a high energy dog like a beagle. He's now conked out on the floor by my feet. I admit, we're kind of an active family. Poor, tired doggie!

    Our only problem so far is the kittie. Freddie had been with two cats in his past adoption, and we were told it went well with those cats. Not so with our kittie so far. But we've got a plan we think will work. Still, if anyone here has any suggestions how how we can introduce/smooth life between nervous kittie and rowdy "I want to hunt you down, kittie" beagle, please chime in.

    ETA: I have no idea why I spelled "kitty" as "kittie". Maybe the dog also exhausted me? Now I spell all "Y" ending words with "ie", after Freddie himself?
    And so, dear Lord, it is with deep sadness that we turn over to you this young woman, whose dream to ride on a giant swan resulted in her death. Maybe it is your way of telling us... to buy American.

  8. #88
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    My sister has one room that she closes with one of those old "hook" locks. It's placed so that the door can be open a few inches - enough for her cats to get in and get some peace, but not enough for the dog to get in. This gives her cats a place that they can go for some quiet time if that's what they want.

    Just make sure to keep giving the cat plenty of attention and hugs during the transition and make sure she has a place to go in peace if she wants to avoid the overly friendly beagle.

    And congrats, Freddie is adorable and I was definitely rooting for him!
    "The Devil is joining in, and that's never a good sign." Phil Liggett

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    Would you support mandatory health testing, in order to breed a dog? If you have a dog that has a congenital problem, you probably would not want to breed it. But, if it's something that's not advanced enough to see, testing would alert you.
    No. I honestly don't really support much of any regulation of animal use or any attempt to define them as anything other than livestock or personal property to be disposed of as the owner sees fit provided it doesn't cause a public health hazard (ie dumping carcasses and offal into drinking water supplies.) But were I looking to buy a dog from a breeder, I'd want to know the dog's parents weren't suffering from any hereditary illnesses. Wouldn't buy from a breeder who didn't. (But then since I don't plan on showing, I do the county shelter--no returns, no guarantees, you pays your money, you takes your chances.)

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrAarghHrumph View Post
    As an update, we did end up adopting Freddie the Beagle from the animal shelter. To show how well he has meshed with our family, and what a good fit he is, we actually managed to exhaust him - people have told me this isn't easy to do with a high energy dog like a beagle. He's now conked out on the floor by my feet. I admit, we're kind of an active family. Poor, tired doggie!

    Our only problem so far is the kittie. Freddie had been with two cats in his past adoption, and we were told it went well with those cats. Not so with our kittie so far. But we've got a plan we think will work. Still, if anyone here has any suggestions how how we can introduce/smooth life between nervous kittie and rowdy "I want to hunt you down, kittie" beagle, please chime in.

    ETA: I have no idea why I spelled "kitty" as "kittie". Maybe the dog also exhausted me? Now I spell all "Y" ending words with "ie", after Freddie himself?
    Congrats! I'm glad that it's going well so far!

    Yeah, all of the dogs my family has had have been other-animal-aggressive, so I got no other tips in that subject.

  11. #91

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    Congrats to you and Freddie! I've always made sure my cat can whack the dog once or twice to put the "fear of kitty's claws" into them. It has worked like a charm on two, but not on the third dog.

    We adopted our Jennie from the local shelter in May. She is a purebred yellow Lab, and was only 10 weeks old when we got her. She just had surgery for severe hip displaysia and got her stitches out today. We're pretty sure the idiots who bred her parents dumped her at the shelter after seeing her do the "bunny hop" of bad hips. Which we had no clue about.
    "If I wore what Amodio is wearing to the gayest gaybar in gayville they would kick me out for being too gay." - toddlj

  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    You misunderstood me, a little. I was not blaming the shelters or rescue organizations. I said it's a catch 22 situation. The way, in which, shelters/rescue help to perpetuate puppy mills, is that when people get dogs from those organizations, they do not support ethical breeders. Also, because so many shelters/rescues exist (and that is because they are needed), there are people who impulse buy dogs in pet stores, knowing they can get rid of them if the dog becomes inconvenient. The shelters/rescues do nothing wrong, but they do indirectly keep pet stores and puppy mills going.
    Your logic is still wrong. People who buy pets on impulse aren't thinking ahead. And there will always be ways to get rid of unwanted dogs (i.e. let them go stray or kill them on your own). and facilities that deal with unwanted animals. Even if those facilities kill animals and have no interest in their welfare, they would exist as a form of animal control.

    Shelters and rescues are a response to puppy mills, but don't cause them.

    However, you are obviously correct that in saying that if nobody bought puppies from puppy mills, they wouldn't exist. And the best place to start is to ban pet stores from selling puppies.

    But, there would be still a need for shelters though.

    And buying from a reputable breeder can be a problem because papered dogs are more expensive. Plus, they often have very stringent conditions.

    In our case, we rent and would not want to get our landlord's written permission for another dog, not right now. That would be an automatic no from any breeder, who would never believe me when I say I would never relinquish an animal for any reason other than sickness/inability to care for them. If we have to move from here, surrendering our animals would not be an option. I'd go live in a trailer park if I had to.

    We've been here for 17 years and have had up to four dogs i(three right now) n the household (two suites) and our landlord completely leaves us allow and doesn't even know how many dogs we have. But we just prefer not to deal with him because he's a rather surly, unpleasant fellow and we'd rather not remind him of the actual number of animals in the house. (Three cats as well)/

    Besides, papered dogs are too expensive.

    We couldn't adopt from a rescue for the same reasons. So we got our last two dogs from private sales. I wouldn't say backyard breeders in that I don't think it was an ongoing business for the people whose dogs had the puppies.

    In another case I was interested in getting a Maine Coone cat and the breed told me that she only sold to people who would not let their cat outdoors.

    But I have no issue with some certification being required of people who sell animals but aren't registered purebred dog breeders.

    Just an aside: my dog never stops wagging his tail. I ask him "are you a happy dog" (I know he doesn't literally understand that) and he twirls around and jumps on me and licks my face. I wish for all dogs to be that happy.
    I've got one of those happy happy dogs too. She'll often start thumping her tail loudly for no reason but being happy, so loud that the folks downstairs can hear her.
    Last edited by Japanfan; 11-26-2011 at 06:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    No. I honestly don't really support much of any regulation of animal use or any attempt to define them as anything other than livestock or personal property to be disposed of as the owner sees fit provided it doesn't cause a public health hazard (ie dumping carcasses and offal into drinking water supplies.)
    So it's ok to torture veal calves, set cats and dogs on fire, starve them to death or stomp on chickens?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    Your logic is still wrong. People who buy pets on impulse aren't thinking ahead. And there will always be ways to get rid of unwanted dogs (i.e. let them go stray or kill them on your own). and facilities that deal with unwanted animals. Even if those facilities kill animals and have no interest in their welfare, they would exist as a form of animal control.

    Shelters and rescues are a response to puppy mills, but don't cause them.

    However, you are obviously correct that in saying that if nobody bought puppies from puppy mills, they wouldn't exist. And the best place to start is to ban pet stores from selling puppies.
    I think you are misunderstanding me. You pretty much said the same thing I did, just a little differently. Shelters and rescues don't create the existence of puppy mills. But, as I said it's a catch 22 situation. We need the shelters, because there are puppy mills. But if people bought from reputable breeders, it would lessen the need for shelters. If people bought from reputable breeders, the puppy mills would have no business. I also said that we need legislation to ban puppy mills and selling dogs in pet stores, first. Only then can we hopefully see less need for shelters. Where I think people miss something, is the idea that one should only rescue dogs. If we don't support reputable breeding, we hurt the pool of healthy dogs.

    I don't think that reputable breeders necessarily have to breed pure bred dogs. There are many mixes that improve the health of some breeds. I do think the trend for "designer dogs" is rather :roll eyes:. The trend for breeding, every dog there is, with poodles, to get dogs that don't shed is not helping the animal.


    I've got one of those happy happy dogs too. She'll often start thumping her tail loudly for no reason but being happy, so loud that the folks downstairs can hear her.
    Lucky dog!
    Last edited by cruisin; 11-27-2011 at 03:12 AM.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrAarghHrumph View Post
    As an update, we did end up adopting Freddie the Beagle from the animal shelter. To show how well he has meshed with our family, and what a good fit he is, we actually managed to exhaust him - people have told me this isn't easy to do with a high energy dog like a beagle. He's now conked out on the floor by my feet. I admit, we're kind of an active family. Poor, tired doggie!

    Our only problem so far is the kittie. Freddie had been with two cats in his past adoption, and we were told it went well with those cats. Not so with our kittie so far. But we've got a plan we think will work. Still, if anyone here has any suggestions how how we can introduce/smooth life between nervous kittie and rowdy "I want to hunt you down, kittie" beagle, please chime in.

    ETA: I have no idea why I spelled "kitty" as "kittie". Maybe the dog also exhausted me? Now I spell all "Y" ending words with "ie", after Freddie himself?
    Congratulations and good for Freddie. Time will help. Your cat and dog may never be friendly, but they'll come to a mutual understanding.
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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    No. I honestly don't really support much of any regulation of animal use or any attempt to define them as anything other than livestock or personal property to be disposed of as the owner sees fit provided it doesn't cause a public health hazard (ie dumping carcasses and offal into drinking water supplies.)
    I'm sorry, I can't wrap my head around that.

    But were I looking to buy a dog from a breeder, I'd want to know the dog's parents weren't suffering from any hereditary illnesses. Wouldn't buy from a breeder who didn't. (But then since I don't plan on showing, I do the county shelter--no returns, no guarantees, you pays your money, you takes your chances.)
    I do not buy from breeders to show my dogs. I buy from breeders because I want to know that every health precaution was taken to insure the best health for my puppy. Obviously, there are no guarantees. But I want to know that the bitches were treated humanely, are loved, and their health needs taken care of. I want to know that my puppy was given the best shot at a long and healthy life. That all of it's health needs were met. I do like having a Cavalier that looks like a Cavalier, not too big/small, nicely marked, but it's health is paramount.

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrAarghHrumph View Post
    As an update, we did end up adopting Freddie the Beagle from the animal shelter. To show how well he has meshed with our family, and what a good fit he is, we actually managed to exhaust him - people have told me this isn't easy to do with a high energy dog like a beagle. He's now conked out on the floor by my feet. I admit, we're kind of an active family. Poor, tired doggie!
    Congratulations, I wish you many years of mutual happiness and love.

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    We have already taught Freddie "sit", "down", and I'm working on "stay" next. "Heel" is an ongoing process, but he's getting better.
    And so, dear Lord, it is with deep sadness that we turn over to you this young woman, whose dream to ride on a giant swan resulted in her death. Maybe it is your way of telling us... to buy American.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    I do the ink the trend for "designer dogs" is rather :roll eyes:. The trend for breeding, every dog there is, with poodles, to get dogs that don't shed is not helping the animal.
    There is something of a Catch-22 with buying purebred dogs from even reputable breeders, and not just when it comes to breeding out shedding. Take, for example, the sad example of the bulldog:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/27/ma...pagewanted=all

    But as the article points out, bulldogs aren't alone: Broadcast on the BBC, “Exposed” spawned three independent reports into purebred breeding, each finding that some modern breeding practices — including inbreeding and breeding for “extreme traits,” like the massive and short-faced head of the bulldog — are detrimental to the health and welfare of dogs.

    And before this continues, I'm not arguing with what you said, as I did read it all and am aware that you said breeders don't have to breed purebreds; I'm simply using a quotation of yours to introduce my own point.
    Trolling dates all the way back to 397 B.C. - People began following Plato around and would make fart noises after everything he said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rfisher View Post
    Congratulations and good for Freddie. Time will help. Your cat and dog may never be friendly, but they'll come to a mutual understanding.
    This. A firm "No!" 97,000 times will help. It may not stop the start of the chase, but it will stop them before they get to the cat. Eventually.

    I do love a good beagle, though. Hope your family and Freddie have many great years together!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Allskate View Post
    I understand the need for good breeders versus puppy mills. However, especially given the situation we already have -- there are so many dogs being put down right now or without homes -- I really hope that people will adopt dogs from shelters and rescue organizations. It would be nice to live in a world where there was no need for shelters and rescue organizations, but that isn't the case and isn't likely to be the case in the future.
    .
    And, of course, other unusual circumstances. My dog was used in a TV infomercial and was going to go to a pound or mall pet shop before my dad and I intervened. The idea of my furball teacup shitsu going to a pet store or a pound is just unbelievable.

    Of course, these are probably few and far between, but I think we agree that the idea is to get dogs who are currently in need.

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