# Thread: Why second jump in combination?

1. ## Why second jump in combination?

For repeated triples and quads, we've seen some skaters make the second one in combination and I don't understand why they choose to do that.

For example, some skaters do 3A then 3A+2T.
That way, if you miss on the second 3A(step out or fall, etc...) and fail to put 2T, you will lose a base valut of 2T and 20% of the base value of 3A for not making it in combination(3A, 3A+SEQ).

This may cause you to make another individual jump in combination in order to make up the mistake, then that jump combination will be counted as a 4th combination jump element.

If you plan to make the first 3A in combination(3A+2T, 3A), you will have a chance to make the second 3A in combination in case you miss it, but if you plan to make the second one FROM THE BEGINNING(3A, 3A+2T), you can not make it up and lose a lot of points.

If you do the secont one in the last half of the program, you will get some extra point, but the difference is not big(only 0.13 if you only put +2T). Unless you're really confident in landing both, I don't think it's worth risking to do.

2. I agree, and that's why I think Nagasu is smart to get all the combinations out of the way in her opening 3 jumping passes. That way you don't need to think COP throughout the whole skate.

I think it is extremely risky to get the 3 jump combo too late / last, like Ando. But it did work to her advantage at Worlds last season because she ultimately won by the narrowest of margins only and every little bit of point counts.

3. Originally Posted by Marco
I agree, and that's why I think Nagasu is smart to get all the combinations out of the way in her opening 3 jumping passes. That way you don't need to think COP throughout the whole skate.
Yes, I know it probably makes no difference in something like PCS to do all 3 combinations for the first 3 jumping passes, but I wish she would do just 1 of them in the later of the program. Seeing all of them in the first 3 jumping passes is not so exciting to watch.

On the other hand, why does she do 3Lo, 3Lz+2T in the short, instead of 3Lz+2T, 3Lo? She did miss on 3Lz and failed to make it in combination at Skate Canada, didn't she?

4. Originally Posted by tkaug
Yes, I know it probably makes no difference in something like PCS to do all 3 combinations for the first 3 jumping passes, but I wish she would do just 1 of them in the later of the program. Seeing all of them in the first 3 jumping passes is not so exciting to watch.

On the other hand, why does she do 3Lo, 3Lz+2T in the short, instead of 3Lz+2T, 3Lo? She did miss on 3Lz and failed to make it in combination at Skate Canada, didn't she?
Mirai attempts all 3 combos first because the 2axel3toe is the big combo and she needs to do it with fresh legs, and the lutz and loop combos allow her to repeat the jumps later. If she attempts either the lutz or loop combo later, it would be exactly like what you said in your first post (taking a risk of turning the 2nd triple into a SEQ for little bonus points). Ashley Wagner has that layout - flip combo and 2axel3toe combo first, and then loop combo in the 2nd half and on the 2nd loop.

I think Mirai's current sp layout is the way it is because of choreographic purpose. I.e. if she is to do the lutz combo first, she will need to generate a lot more speed and reach the end of the rink instead of just the middle and will miss the timing of the jump to the music. Either that, or perhaps she just wants to do her better jump first and get some confidence (the way Sarah Hughes always did the 2axel first).

5. This is usually the skaters hardest jump I think and they want to get it out there and if they succeed they will have the confidence to do it again and add a combo to it. Chan in 2011 did a solo quad and then a quad triple.

6. It's a gamble but every tenth of a point counts.

7. It's a lot easier to concentrate on the jump alone vs. in combo. I guess that's why some skaters choose to do that. Concentrate on the first to be clean and get +GOE, then, the 2nd one in combo, when the pressure is less important. JMO.

8. This isn't new to CoP. Even in the 6.0 days a lot of skaters would do their combos first and then the rest of the program while only a few skaters preferred to do an easy jump first as a confidence booster and/or to spread the combos out.

There are a couple of different considerations, as have been mentioned here as well as in that post. Likelihood of success vs. potential bonus points, what fits the music or the sense of balance in the program construction, what the skater is comfortable with in terms of stamina and mental focus, etc.

I guess each skater needs to figure out what works best for her or him. If they're consistently not getting the success they hope for with the repeated jumps and are losing points to unintended sequence penalties, they might want to rethink their strategy. But the same strategy might not be best for every skater.

10. Do you think judges are possibly (subconsciously) rewarding skaters who place all their combinations late in the program with higher component scores (justified or not)?

There's been a trend of singles skaters who are placing all three of their sequences/combinations in the 2nd half of the program, not mention placing as many as 5 jump elements in the 2nd half.

One would like to think that after enough experience under CoP, the singles skaters do know (in most possible scenarios) when they can or cannot change up the elements in their program to re-insert a combination where allowable.

11. And hope you nvr forget the choreograph.

Jumps alone are important but jumps with music, notes and choreograph planned before and after are more important than mere jumps.

12. Originally Posted by Marco
Mirai attempts all 3 combos first because the 2axel3toe is the big combo and she needs to do it with fresh legs, and the lutz and loop combos allow her to repeat the jumps later. .
I thought Mirai does 2A-2T, not 2A-3T. She repeats 3Lz and 3L, so she can't do 2A-3T since she does a solo 3T later in the program. You can only repeat two triple jumps, right?

I just realized Mirai only does three kinds of triple jumps...and she got edge calls on her 3Lz. Hmmmm it's kind of underwhelming...IMHO

13. The worst case for this thread was Daisuke Takahashi's free skating for 2008 Worlds.

He had 2 4Ts and 3As in the program, making the 2nd one in combination for both(*1) and he missed on the 2nd ones(*2).
He put +2T on 3Lz and that was recognized as a 4th combination jumps, which dropped him out of the podium.
If he had made the first 4T and 3A in combination(*3), he could possibly have got a silver medal.

(*1)planned: 4T, 4T+2T, 3A, 3A+2T+2Lox, 3F+3Tx, 3Sx, 3Lox, 3Lzx = 65.63

(*2)actual: 4T, 4T<+SEQ, 3A, 3A+SEQx, 3F+3Tx, 3Sx, 3Lox, 3Lz*+2T* = 47.20

(*3)suggestion: 4T+2T, 4T<, 3A+2T+2Lo, 3Ax, 3F+3Tx, 3Sx, 3Lox, 3Lzx = 60.35

14. Originally Posted by ChibiChibi
I thought Mirai does 2A-2T, not 2A-3T. She repeats 3Lz and 3L, so she can't do 2A-3T since she does a solo 3T later in the program. You can only repeat two triple jumps, right?

I just realized Mirai only does three kinds of triple jumps...and she got edge calls on her 3Lz. Hmmmm it's kind of underwhelming...IMHO
Actually going by her planned content in the last 2 seasons, I think the axel combination is meant to be a 2/3, and she only replaced the flip with the toe in her last 2 GPs BECAUSE she missed the 2/3 and her flip was less consistent.

15. Originally Posted by ChibiChibi
I thought Mirai does 2A-2T, not 2A-3T. She repeats 3Lz and 3L, so she can't do 2A-3T since she does a solo 3T later in the program. You can only repeat two triple jumps, right?

I just realized Mirai only does three kinds of triple jumps...and she got edge calls on her 3Lz. Hmmmm it's kind of underwhelming...IMHO
Yup, like Marco said. the 2A-2T is supposed to be where the 3T is. That makes the solo 3T her 3F (which is being worked on).

16. Oh I see.. Thank you for the explanation!

17. This is the quetion I want to ask for a long time.
Many skater plan 3A+2T after 3A,even if both of them in the first half of the program(which means no scoring benefit by bothering to do that).

I don't get explanations someone gives above.I don't think doing +2Tcombo affects fitness to music structure much.(I also feel many skaters don't pay attention to express music to such a extent)
And pressure may rise when you have to succeed in doing combo otherwise you lose many point(3A+SEQ and can't recover).

18. Originally Posted by OKAERINKO
This is the quetion I want to ask for a long time.
Many skater plan 3A+2T after 3A,even if both of them in the first half of the program(which means no scoring benefit by bothering to do that).
One possible explanation might be that the skater is aiming for highest possible GOE (+2 or better) on the solo 3A by planning to do it at top speed with a difficult entry and/or exit, etc., which is most likely to succeed early in the program on fresh legs.

If the skater can't expect that kind of GOE on the combination, as long as he can land it cleanly and not get negative GOE, putting it later won't lose him much.

19. I think it's a huge gamble, if you mess up on triple jump, you get deduction bceause the jump combo wasn't completed. Plus, doing the jump in the begining of the program is a better idea because the skater is on fresher legs, if the skater does it in the middle or at the end of the program, it usually doesn't work out.

20. Originally Posted by OKAERINKO
Many skater plan 3A+2T after 3A,even if both of them in the first half of the program(which means no scoring benefit by bothering to do that).

I don't get explanations someone gives above.I don't think doing +2Tcombo affects fitness to music structure much.(I also feel many skaters don't pay attention to express music to such a extent)
And pressure may rise when you have to succeed in doing combo otherwise you lose many point(3A+SEQ and can't recover).

At Nationals, Ross Miner had 2 3As in the beginning of his free and planned the second one with a 2T, then fell on the second one. He lost 3.0 points in the base value there(3A+2T turnning into 3A+SEQ).
What's the point of choosing to do this especially when the second one is not even in the second half of the program? I'm so frustrated to see skaters do this and miss on the second one.

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