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  1. #61
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    Just legendary.

    It's a shame these programs or performances won't be truly rewarded if he doesn't have the big jumps or land them consistently. His PCS should have seen 8s a long time ago and like Kozuka said, I am afraid it's only going to happen after / when he delivers at Worlds and wins a medal.

    I would love the singles results at Worlds to look like this:

    1. Kozuka / Czisny
    2. Abbott / Suzuki
    3. Verner / Asada
    4. Hanyu / Kostner
    5. Chan / Wagner
    6. Takahashi / Korpi
    7. Fernandez / Biryukova
    8. Dornbush / Murakami
    9. Brezina / Elene G
    10. Song / Phaneuf

  2. #62

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    Love Abbotts skating to death, but right now the only one likely to defeat Chan is Chan himself. Chan has excellent skating skills AND multiplle quads.

    That said, Jeremy's FP was otherworldly.

    He's got his spins back, and hopefully the jumps will also be there by January. He never gave up on this program- he performed it with purpose and inspiration throughout.

    Jeremy's skating is about music, ice, man. I just love to watch it.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    ITA, shine, that Chan's SS always get "so much attention from the audience [and] from himself as well that everything else just seems vanilla once you get past the SS." As I said previously, perhaps Chan's dynamic ss tend to mask his lack of genuine on-ice identity, maturity, and musicality.
    I agree. Probably the rest of what you wrote is a bit of a exaggeration, but only a bit. I also admire Chan's skating skills, and the speed and ease with which he is skating is impressive to watch even on TV/video. But at the same time he hasn't made it into my Top 10 of currently skating male skaters (both amateur and professional), while Jeremy Abbott is definitely in Top 5 (more precisely, in fifth place contending for the fourth or third with Buttle and Takahashi ). And the things that you mentioned - identity, maturity, musicality and overall artistry is what makes that difference. Although I don't think that Chan is unmusical. He's just musical enough to get the needed component mark for interpretation, but not more. As nashvilledancer wrote, he is still young, and probably the maturity and personal attitude in his programs will come with time, but I don't see it yet.

    Obviously, that's the problem with young skaters now - they are mostly taught to do everything that is required to "to tick all the boxes", including in PCS, but it seems rarely who teaches the importance of personal attitude and the (real) feel for music anymore. Now it's more about the form, less about the inner feeling and understanding. So, it's up to the skater's personality what he/she will become in that regard.
    If everyone performs their jumps to their best, why should Chan's ss trump competitors such as Dai, Jeremy, or Kosuka (who have great transitions, better presentation skills and true artistry)?
    Well, Chan currently has a bigger arsenal of difficult jumps than Takahashi and Abbott, so, even if they all do them clean, Chan will still win. As for Kozuka, I can't agree about him having great presentation skills and artistry. He is good, but... Probably that's just my opinion, as he has never once truly moved me or held my attention during his programs.


    Returning to the original topic, both of Abbott's programs this season - especially this LP (or FS ) - have cemented his position as one of my favourite current skaters. Up until now I was still prepared to be disappointed by him (didn't like his last season's FS that much), but not anymore.
    Last edited by lauravvv; 11-11-2011 at 02:19 PM.

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by lauravvv View Post
    Obviously, that's the problem with young skaters now - they are mostly taught to do everything that is required to "to tick all the boxes", including in PCS, but it seems rarely who teaches the importance of personal attitude and the (real) feel for music anymore. Now it's more about the form, less about the inner feeling and understanding. So, it's up to the skater's personality what he/she will become in that regard.
    Hasn't that always been the case? Some skaters are emotional, some are analytical. Some are natural performers, some are naturally shy, or committed jocks, or willing to be expertly "packaged" but not self-motivated artists, etc.

    Coaching emphasis also plays a part.

  5. #65
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    Chan's only competition from now until Sochi is Chan. Only a major self destruction can make him lose. The rest should focus on making themselves the best skaters they can be so they can fight for the silver.

  6. #66
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    Love your wish list for Worlds placements, Marco! Oh, but I'd switch Kostner with Suzuki, and I'd switch Takahashi with Verner (even as much as I love Tomas).

    How ironic, irony upon irony in fs. Sure, Chan just needs a bit of this and a bit of that to help give him some extra oomph and some magic, since he's already got the gold, right judgejudy Okay, so Chan already checked out Weir to try and perfect his 3-axel and emulate "silky skating." He looks to Savoie and Abbott to learn how to incorporate transitions. By gosh, that's not enough, so he now needs to get to the source of Abbott's artistic and choreographic mastery, so why not work with Abbott's modern dance coach. Uh boy, Chan, you of superior SS, I think you must look within first. It must come from within Chantastic, or else YOU WILL STILL BE MISSING SOMETHING!

    Can't they please reward the true and complete all-around skaters who exhibit mastery in the art of skating, as well as in the technical aspects: Dai Takahashi, Jeremy Abbott, Takahiko Kozuka (fine, you wouldn't put Kozuka in this category, lauravvv. I disagree, Kozuka has much better musicality and artistry than Chan. To a large degree, IMHO, Patrick Chan is fairly "studied" in his so-called artistry, and he skates over the music -- he does not interpret the music).

    Re, you think I'm exaggerating a bit: that's the point, lauravvv, when it comes to Chan, there can apparently be no exaggeration, cause he's just so "heroic." Seriously, Chan has had above average ss, and mucho talent from a young age. He was pushed up quickly as a result and unfortunately over-hyped. Figure skating is often a game of strategy and exaggeration, because it is so political, and the IJS has added even more complexity to this most dramatic and complex sport. Chan's often given leeway in the marks when performing poorly, and his PCS are way off the charts to an "exaggerated" degree.

    If not for his mouthing off too much in 2009, Chan might have won Worlds. It was just as well he came in second there, I suppose. But his marks at 2010 Olympics were a joke in the opposite direction. One thing he learned there was "the judges seem to love me even with mistakes, and if I can perfect a quad, I will be ahead of the pack." Probably even he didn't realize he'd be considered so far ahead, he could do absolutely no wrong ever again, even with multiple mistakes in programs. And please, let's not give Chan anymore excuses, okay. Whaddup with, "He is still young." Give me a break, please. What does that make Hanyu, a baby? In any case, the quad's the thing. The sport decided to listen to Plushy and make it the sine qua non of men's figure skating.

    Like I said, ironies abound all over the place. But that's the way it's been probably forever in figure skating. Some of the very best artists are not fully rewarded for different reasons. It is frankly difficult to combine both artistry and technical ability, and even when you do have both like Hanyu and Johnny Weir, there are other drawbacks. E.g., Hanyu needs to mature and to gain more stamina; Weir had competition nerves, which he overcame, but he was never fully embraced within the sport, which was something his rebellious attitude didn't help. But fine, Johnny did his thing, and he refused to compromise, and he left a mark on the sport that can not be denied, even if it is ignored for the most part, like an elephant in the room.

    Matt Savoie was unlucky politically, and his introspective and shy personality did not help win him any influence with the judges. Matt left an important legacy nonetheless. His programs can be watched over and over again, and be enjoyed and find something new to admire every time. Lambiel is seemingly universally loved and he contributed a great deal to the sport, and I will always enjoy watching him, but I don't recall when if ever he skated a clean program in competition. Buttle finally fixed his 3-axel and made it all come together magically to win in 2008 -- he's just lucky that the quad police were taking a break that year. The marvelous Rohene Ward could barely make it to Nationals every year, much less get out of Nationals (a variety of reasons, including lacking finances for proper training, mucho competition nerves, but WoW, what a skater who combines amazing jumps and out of this world artistry. He is making a mark as a choreographer, and a show skater). Let's not even go into Emanuel Sandhu territory. But look at those who did manage to work on the artistic side of things when they had the jumps: Brian Boitano, Kurt Browning, Ilia Kulik, Alexei Yagudin, even Todd Eldredge -- tho' I know this inclusion will make judgejudy go bonkers. Of course, Christopher Bowman had it all too, but he was like a candle in the wind, or a firecracker burnt out too soon. Paul Wylie, the epitome of a great skater with everything. Paul mainly faltered due to competition nerves, but he got it all together for a magical Olympics which fueled his stellar pro career. And he’s one of Jeremy Abbott’s mentors.

    Oh well, figure skating is chock full of debates and always will be. Re your post, judgejudy, you often do make some mean sense.

    Off to watch Jere-amazin' again ...
    Last edited by aftershocks; 11-11-2011 at 11:47 PM.

  7. #67

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    aftershocks,

    entire post;

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Hasn't that always been the case? Some skaters are emotional, some are analytical. Some are natural performers, some are naturally shy, or committed jocks, or willing to be expertly "packaged" but not self-motivated artists, etc.

    Coaching emphasis also plays a part.
    True. But with the COP system artistry has become something that is measured in numbers, which actually is not real artistry. Surely, before that skaters didn't have to work on artistry to get good marks, but, at the same time, those with an artistic inclination had more freedom. But nothing new here. This has been discussed countless times, and nothing is changing because of it. Plus, we also know that the new system has it's good points too.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Uh boy, Chan, you of superior SS, I think you must look within first. It must come from within Chantastic, or else YOU WILL STILL BE MISSING SOMETHING!
    Again, agree completely. The problem is, to be truly artistic, skaters need to have a personal attitude towards the chosen music and/or preferebly have their own general vision about the style and mood of the program, not just wait for the instructions from their coach and choreographer. I think, even if the music is offered by their coach or choreographer, they must first listen (really listen) to it carefully, and try to find a connection with it, understand what the music tells them personally. And, unfortunately, this is an attitude that could cause problems if: a) the skater is too inexperienced to understand how his idea will go with the required technical elements, b) the coach or the choreographer has a different work ethic/is of the kind that wants to control everything no matter what/doesn't have the will and the patience to compromise and work with the program in order to both satisfy the skater's wishes and to achieve the needed technical content/just thinks that ticking all the boxes technically and in PCS is more imortant than some personal creativity. All well known problems. Both the personal attitude and the necessary experience can come with age, but trainers and choreographers are another thing. I don't think there is anyone among the top trainers currently to whom creativity is just as important as marks, or who would be willing or patient enough to let skaters make some mistakes in the process in order to see what they come up with on their own, and then correct them where needed (as you understand, I don't mean the execution of separate technical elements, but rather the capability to combine their ideas or separate choreographic moves/transitions that they probably have imagined with the required technical content ). I know that Peter Grutter is such a trainer. Probably he just had to be such a trainer with Lambiel, because Lambiel with his personality most likely wouldn't have been able to work with a really controlling coach - even as a child. Or he would have been broken, and then there wouldn't be Lambiel as we know him now. Probably he would have better jumps and the Olympic gold + more world gold medals in his pocket, if he had worked with someone like Tarasova or Morozov. But, as I wrote, then he wouldn't be what he is now.

    And probably Abbott would also be a better "technician", if he was not so focused on his creativity. But do we want that? I personally don't.

    Can't they please reward the true and complete all-around skaters who exhibit mastery in the art of skating, as well as in the technical aspects: Dai Takahashi, Jeremy Abbott, Takahiko Kozuka (fine, you wouldn't put Kozuka in this category, lauravvv. I disagree, Kozuka has much better musicality and artistry than Chan. To a large degree, IMHO, Patrick Chan is fairly "studied" in his so-called artistry, and he skates over the music -- he does not interpret the music).
    As for Kozuka, it's really just personal taste, but I agree about Chan - that was what I was trying to say about him. Formally ticking all the boxes is "studied". I think he does skate to music (meaning that his skating is not in discord with music), but only formally, and I agree that he doesn't interpret it in any individual way.

    Re, you think I'm exaggerating a bit: that's the point, lauravvv, when it comes to Chan, there can apparently be no exaggeration, cause he's just so "heroic." Seriously, Chan has had above average ss, and mucho talent from a young age. He was pushed up quickly as a result and unfortunately over-hyped. Figure skating is often a game of strategy and exaggeration, because it is so political, and the IJS has added even more complexity to this most dramatic and complex sport. Chan's often given leeway in the marks when performing poorly, and his PCS are way off the charts to an "exaggerated" degree.
    But must we really exaggerate as well, just because Chan and figure skating judges etc. are exaggerating ? No, if seriously, you are mostly right, I just don't think that everything is quite as bad as you wrote. But, honestly, I am too lazy to explain my opinion about those things in such detail. And my post is too long already as it is.

  10. #70
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    Thanks for your thoughts, lauravvv ... the debate goes on in figure skating.

    Ahhhh what a breath of fresh air to see Dai (at NHK Trophy) given marks through the roof for his fabulous short program (w/o a quad, btw), not to mention seeing him skate it lights out! No matter the marks, what a joy to watch. Thrilling!

    Dai's short program and Abbott's free program -- the best of the men this season, and programs that I think will last for the ages!

    Chan with his gorgeous SS really can't touch what Dai and Abbott do in these programs. Whether its because "he's still young," or he doesn't have it within him and never will, remains to be seen. Funny that some are calling World champion Chan "still young," at the age of 21 (which he will be next month), while someone in another thread disses Johnny as having been "a grown man" at the age of 21 in 2006.

  11. #71
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    For a moment I felt disoriented. I thought I was in Jeremy Abbott's thread and it's all about the devil incarnate Chan.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    For a moment I felt disoriented. I thought I was in Jeremy Abbott's thread and it's all about the devil incarnate Chan.
    I'm just happy there's an Abbott thread at all.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    For a moment I felt disoriented. I thought I was in Jeremy Abbott's thread and it's all about the devil incarnate Chan.
    No, no, no, do not dis Patrick Chan -- he's just a happy go lucky "kid" with SS to die for. Sure, he needs more work to truly become an artist on ice. Problem is Chan's SS are so mesmerizing to some people, that as a result he's been prematurely touted and rewarded for having it all. He doesn't, but that certainly does not make him "devilish." Nor does it make him almighty ...

    The IJS system, well, that's quite another thing, entirely ...

    Back on topic:

    I was watching Jeremy's sp again, and noticed that maybe he is fooling around with those suspenders a bit too much during the program, but he skates so wonderfully I didn't really notice it the first few times around. Ah well, here is Benji Schwimmer's take on the short program:

    "If I were to compare Jeremy's skating to a dancer, it would be Nureyev. I wanted to take him out of that box, not to destroy what he has, just to play a completely different character than himself. It's one part swing, one part Jeremy, one part absolute fun."

    Here is Jeremy's take on his free program music:

    "When I listen to [the music], I get chills, kind of, and I can see the program and feel the music."

  14. #74

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    Thanks for sharing those very interesting comments, aftershocks.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Here is Jeremy's take on his free program music:

    "When I listen to [the music], I get chills, kind of, and I can see the program and feel the music."
    Watching Jeremy skate to this program over and over again, not once does my mind wander. Not once do I compare him to another skater. I keep forgetting this is a competitive program! I am so enthralled with Jeremy's connection to the music that everything else seems secondary.

    Love the program, adore the skating and love that Jeremy shared this with us.

    ps: Thank you, aftershocks.

  16. #76

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    Lovely performance of Adele's "Hometown Glory" by Abbott on NBC's Fashion on Ice broadcast today!

  17. #77
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    ^^ They showed only one performance by Jeremy, not the "Hometown Glory" in the white Mendel outfit.

    Does anyone have a link to that performance?

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    Lovely performance of Adele's "Hometown Glory" by Abbott on NBC's Fashion on Ice broadcast today!
    Hope there will be a video available. I really liked that program at COC gala, even despite the mistakes. When he first performed it at 'All That Skate Spring', I thought his costume, some of the moves and the general feeling of it (although the theme is different) called for comparison with Lambiel's 'Ne me quitte pas' - mainly, a really unfortunate choice of costume . Then the comparison was not in his favour. But now he has changed the costume (), and it's not so anymore. I finally felt like this program is truly his own, and there is no need to compare it to anyone else.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    ^^ They showed only one performance by Jeremy, not the "Hometown Glory" in the white Mendel outfit.
    A pity .

  20. #80

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    Since the "white Mendel outfit" had suspenders, I assume that chacked solo performance was an exhibition of his "Sing Sing Sing" SP?

    A fan took videos (from far away) of Abbott's FS (partial) practice run throughs at CoC in Shanghai:
    Nov. 3rd: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl1vZMpznSo
    Nov. 5th: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zXuya1TQts

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