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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArtisticFan View Post
    I hope Michelle has a healthy pregnancy and that the baby is healthy too. The daughters deserve that much since their role in child raising goes far beyond chores of a normal or large size family to me.
    This. My parents had 6 kids & we all had to pitch in & help with housework & caring for the youngest ones but none of us older ones had to sacrifice school or social activities because of being exploited by our parents. And after HS, all of us went on to college or in one case tech school & were not expected or encouraged to stay home to help mom.

    And it's unrealistic to say this family isn't costing taxpayers beyond the norm. Even if you don't count the cost of the pregnancy & care of #19, does anyone think what they would pay in property tax even comes close to educating 19-20 kids? Even if they are home schooled, the home school kits from the state can be costly to produce. And some state employee has to grade them & certify them. Add in all other services which city, county, & state provide to smaller families & their taxes (if they actually paid any) wouldn't even come close. As it is, they don't pay taxes yet they reap the same benefits as other citizens.

  2. #42
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    I think it's crazy to have so many children. JMO.
    Hope she and baby are healthy.
    Though I am afraid that this is going to kill Michelle some day.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    Even if they are home schooled, the home school kits from the state can be costly to produce. And some state employee has to grade them & certify them.
    They don't use state provided material. They use a curriculum called "Wisdom Booklets" for the younger kids, and now the older kids are doing product-placement "College Plus" (which is essentially a way to CLEP your way out of most of college, but it doesn't grant a degree- we'll see if any of them get that far...)

    As for grading and certifying, in Arkansas, they are required to take the state assessment at certain intervals, however, there is no minimum passing score that has to be met.

    I do believe the Duggars sit for the GED, so that is a plus (but not a state employee)

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    I'm on board with the thought that she had fertility treatments that I've seen all over the internet. This is the longest they've ever gone between pregnancies, I think.

    Kelly Bates is on progesterone treatments to maintain her pregnancy.

    So while it is "God's Will" for them to have as many kids as possible (which they of course help along in every possible way, weaning the kids off breastfeeding early- though I agree, you don't have to breastfeed at all if you don't want), it apparently isn't up to God for them to not have kids.

    It reminds me of the joke of the guy in the hurricane , and a man comes by and offers him a ride, but he doesn't go saying God will save him, and then while he is stranded in flood waters a boat comes by, but he says God will save him, and then he is stranded on his roof top with the rising flood, and a helicopter comes by, but he says God will save him, and then at the Pearly Gates he said "God, why didn't you save me?" and God says "I tried 3 times!". Was Josie's medical problems not a sign to them? And instead she is just being cared for by Jill, tossed aside by her "mother" so that the next precious flower can be the spotlight. (Jordyn is the most unfortunate of all of them. When I watched the show I felt so bad for her, it's like she doesn't recognize who her Mom is. And poor Joy, with no joy left...)

    Perhaps Michelle wants to die a martyr to the Gothard cause rather than face a life where she can't always be bearing children, the only thing she's ever done...
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  5. #45
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    Not to get off on too much of a theological tangent, but IIRC the Duggars previously said that they didn't use birth control methods, other than abstention, so that they would have as many children as G-d wanted them to, without their intervention. So if it's true that they couldn't conceive on their own this time, wouldn't it be going against G-d's will to have fertility treatments?
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  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    This. My parents had 6 kids & we all had to pitch in & help with housework & caring for the youngest ones but none of us older ones had to sacrifice school or social activities because of being exploited by our parents. And after HS, all of us went on to college or in one case tech school & were not expected or encouraged to stay home to help mom.
    My mom is the oldest of eight and my dad is one of 14. My mom spent many of her years caring for younger siblings, which can be considered a chore. But even she admits that the system used by the Duggars and other families like that is a big leap from changing diapers and helping mom feed the youngest children when needed. My mom quickly married to get out of the situation she was in during those years.

    I realize that these children put on a happy face for the camera, but one has to wonder what the children (especially those oldest four girls) think about another baby. Are they consulted? Are they asked about the additional responsibility or just assigned to it? I know the answer, but it still irks me to see what should be fun and free years for these children being wasted so mom and dad can live the life they want.

    While I am probably the opposite in my thinking in comparison to any of the Duggars, I would estimate that at least the oldest daughter, if not the oldest two daughters, would be thinking about marriage and children of their own. Raising their siblings has to be more of a burden than a reward at this point.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Not to get off on too much of a theological tangent, but IIRC the Duggars previously said that they didn't use birth control methods, other than abstention, so that they would have as many children as G-d wanted them to, without their intervention. So if it's true that they couldn't conceive on their own this time, wouldn't it be going against G-d's will to have fertility treatments?
    In theory, yes. However, Kelly Bates - the friend of the Duggars who is pregnant with #19 has admitted to taking hormones (not sure what hormone) to assist in keeping her pregnancies after she has suffered several miscarriages. From my understanding that has raised a few eyebrows within their circles. However, her argument (and that of her husband) is that once the child is born they would do everything to save his or her life. So they argue that it is the same situation when the child is still in the womb.

    I have a feeling that if presented with fertility treatments as an option, the Duggars and others like them would probably find some reasoning to accept that as part of G-d's will. I just don't think they would announce it or advertise it. From my understanding, they seem to switch doctors quite a bit even. One theory on that is that they search out one who agrees with their current thoughts. If a doctor says no, they simply find one who says yes.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    And it's unrealistic to say this family isn't costing taxpayers beyond the norm. Even if you don't count the cost of the pregnancy & care of #19, does anyone think what they would pay in property tax even comes close to educating 19-20 kids? Even if they are home schooled, the home school kits from the state can be costly to produce. And some state employee has to grade them & certify them. Add in all other services which city, county, & state provide to smaller families & their taxes (if they actually paid any) wouldn't even come close. As it is, they don't pay taxes yet they reap the same benefits as other citizens.
    Just to put some numbers on it, the average property tax bill for a home with no mortgage in Springdale, AR is about $950/year. Now, assuming their home would be, say, five times that much (given the size of their house), that would be a little less than $5,000/year they aren't paying.

    The annual per pupil spending costs for Springdale, AR is about $5,100/student. By home-schooling (and they do provide their own curricula and materials) 15 of their kids at any given time, they are saving the state upwards of $75,000/year.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by milanessa View Post
    Fantasize a lot, do you?
    You know, I started watching their show because I thought they were adorable kids, and I wanted to see how a family of that size managed.

    After about half a season, I realized that they managed because the older girls acted AS mothers, not just helpers, and that Jim Bob and Michelle were not the "parents of the year" they are often lauded as. I wish the kids the best in life, but the parents are despicable.

    I watched for a few years, but I can no longer stomach it. Between the way they handled Jason's (?) fall, and Josie being taken on an international trip when her health clearly can't handle it (as evidenced by needing a medical escort to come home with her), and the constant lying (that Michelle never left Little Rock when Josie was there, yet she went and spoke out against a convenience store selling alcohol near her hometown- live and let live? Why don't they do the same for others?) The modesty angle- she wanted her KNEES blurred out while she was wakeboarding (and once insisted her stomach be covered from her family on an ultrasound, though others have been shown to the cable audience with it bare), but we saw Anna, just barely blurred, giving birth on a toilet! It is just incredible hypocrisy.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArtisticFan View Post
    From my understanding, they seem to switch doctors quite a bit even. One theory on that is that they search out one who agrees with their current thoughts. If a doctor says no, they simply find one who says yes.
    I think it is because Michelle, and those like minded, prefer vaginal births. It is very difficult to find doctors willing to do them on a patient with her number of births and c-sections.

    This one is supposed to be a planned C-section though.

  11. #51

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    For those who have been watching the show, can anyone tell us what happened to the oldest twins? We've seen all of the children (including Josh and his wife) on every episode, but I don't remember the last time we saw Jana or John David. Where are they? What are they doing? They are grown up now. Have they decided this isn't the life they want to lead? Just curious.
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  12. #52
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    How old is Jinger now? I've only seen the show a handful of times, but I always figured if one really rebelled and left, she'd be the one.

  13. #53
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    It is rumored that John David is courting a girl named Anna Hacken (Hackel?). I'm pretty sure his tow-truck company is as successful as one can be when you spend half your time away filming special episodes for a reality show. Like Josh's business, this one is apparently also actually owned by Jim Bob. People have said he lives outside of the Duggar house, at one of their rental properties, so that is a plus. I think the justification was because he gets lots of towing/fire department calls in the middle of the night.

    It is also rumored that Jana is pretty well set to be a stay at home sister for quite some time, as she and Jill seem to be the only of the older girls that enjoy the kids. (Jinger seems to do the bare minimum, Jessa is always filled with eye rolling when she is with the kids.)

    I think both of them don't like the camera, at least John David has always appeared shy, and I would suspect, as legal adults, even if they still have to stay under their parents authority due to the religious beliefs that maintain children as kids until marriage, that they can ask to not be filmed heavily.

    (I really hope all the adult children are being paid separately by the show. I know they don't have to pay the minors...)

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveRinger View Post
    For those who have been watching the show, can anyone tell us what happened to the oldest twins? We've seen all of the children (including Josh and his wife) on every episode, but I don't remember the last time we saw Jana or John David. Where are they? What are they doing? They are grown up now. Have they decided this isn't the life they want to lead? Just curious.
    I've seen the show once this year and John David was shown as a firefighter, I think, and I think Jana and one of the other girls (I don't know the kids, so I could be way off) were EMTs. Jana apparently wants to be a nurse, if she's the one I'm thinking of.
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    I don't watch the show, but I'm wondering if any of the children are gay. Statistically speaking, it's pretty likely.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    I've seen the show once this year and John David was shown as a firefighter, I think, and I think Jana and one of the other girls (I don't know the kids, so I could be way off) were EMTs. Jana apparently wants to be a nurse, if she's the one I'm thinking of.
    They are not EMTs (it requires much more training than what they are said to have), but are trained first responders, and they do work with the volunteer firefighting that John David does. I think all four older girls are. I wonder what the qualification to be a volunteer firefighter is?

    Was Jana the one Oprah told she would pay to send her to nursing school? It is so unfortunate the parents won't let her take advantage of that. Why do they fear sending these kids into the real world? If they raised them well, they will hold their beliefs even in the real world. At least Anna's parents let her go to college, even if it was an unaccredited.

  17. #57

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    Who is Anna & why was she having a baby on a toilet? I thought all the names started with a J.

    BTW, what J name is left for #20?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    I wonder what the qualification to be a volunteer firefighter is?
    http://education-portal.com/articles...efighters.html
    Trolling dates all the way back to 397 B.C. - People began following Plato around and would make fart noises after everything he said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KikiSashaFan View Post
    How old is Jinger now? I've only seen the show a handful of times, but I always figured if one really rebelled and left, she'd be the one.
    I've never seen the show and I really don't care how many kids they have, but if my parents named me "Jinger," I'd be out the door on my 18th birthday. And I'd change my name.

    My mom was one of 11 kids and taking care of the young'uns is just part of the deal. It's really not forced servitude and the benefits are life-lasting. I'm always amazed at how well my 82-year old Aunt can organize a party food buffet, "set another place" and make everyone who walks through the door feel welcome. She doesn't even know that she has these fantastic skills - I've learned so much from all my aunts and uncles on that side. The were orphaned during the Depression so the oldest not only had to care for younger kids, they have to provide for them as well.

    The Duggars are truly blessed and I don't begrudge them the TV show. Many of the values you've spoken about are things that others can stand to learn, including kindness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    Who is Anna & why was she having a baby on a toilet? I thought all the names started with a J.
    Anna is Josh's husband.

    She was having a homebirth, which they did prepare for (the first child was a spur of the moment homebirth, with Jim Bob on the phone asking them if they were sure that was a good idea). She had a birthing pool, that she labored in, and also labored on the couch, holding her daughter MacKenzie (very sweet moment), but at one point she said she felt like she needed to go the bathroom, and got up to go the bathroom, where, while on the toilet, she had the baby. It probably wasn't blurred as well as it could have been, considering the "modesty" of this family (not to mention, we've met the crew, and they are all male, so they were clearly invited in to view this...)

    Some women have said the final pushes often feel like needing to go the bathroom, so Anna, who is only on her second, may just not have recognized that. Still, it was kind of an "ugh" moment, when after cleaning their whole house, and covering it all in plastic and such, she delivered the baby on the toilet in a bathroom that didn't look sparkling clean.

    This episode was very graphic, because it showed real labor- no drugs. Anna "kept sweet" during almost all of it, you could tell she was in real pain. Nothing like the majority of births portrayed on TV. A really really interesting episode, honestly. Josh, I believe, took a nap at one point...

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