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  1. #121
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    Pdilemma--so the dad isn't in a position to be a full-time parent. Fine. The mother is in a position to be a full-time parent. Fine. The support agreement reflects this. Again, fine.

    Numbers--by your own admission, your son isn't an angel. An impartial judge and social worker evaluated the situation and found the mother to be the better guardian. It happens.

    Like I said, custody cases are emotion-filled affairs. But stictly speaking, neither of you two are the principal parties involved. Stoking resentments on your parts does no good, and makes it much more difficult for the parents to work together in a productive way. I'm not trying to be harsh, but you both seem over-involved in these cases which should really remain just between the parents in question, and this over-involvement can only negatively affect the children. It's hard, but sometimes the best thing to do is to take a few steps back and let things alone.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    Numbers--by your own admission, your son isn't an angel. An impartial judge and social worker evaluated the situation and found the mother to be the better guardian. It happens. .
    I agree my son has not been an angel, but I saw a huge improvement over the last few months.

    A social worker? Not. State supreme courts changed their interpretation of law. But you obviously know better. Got it

  3. #123
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    So being gainfully employed removes your right to be a full time parent? Perhaps he should have quit his job to get custody? Oh, wait, then he'd be a deadbeat for not paying the child support and wouldn't get custody because of that.

    Sorry, that's what is wrong with the system. With adequate arrangements, my brother could handle full custody, but has been told that the courts would absolutely prefer the perennially unemployed by choice mother.

    And I can just imagine the headlines a mother could make if she was gainfully employed and lost custody or was even challenged for custody by a child's habitually unemployed father. There would be national outrage.

  4. #124
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    Numbers and pdilemma--what do you hope to achieve by nursing any perceived injustices? Do you think this helps either of your family members be better fathers? Does it help them get along better with the children's mothers?

    It's bad enough for parents to have to go thru custody battles. But when other family members butt in and keep stoking the fires, it does another injustice to both the parents and the children involved in the custody dispute by making it harder for them to adjust to the new situation.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    Numbers and pdilemma--what do you hope to achieve by nursing any perceived injustices? Do you think this helps either of your family members be better fathers? Does it help them get along better with the children's mothers?

    It's bad enough for parents to have to go thru custody battles. But when other family members butt in and keep stoking the fires, it does another injustice to both the parents and the children involved in the custody dispute by making it harder for them to adjust to the new situation.
    I was one of those children and absolutely agree with this. Kids pick up on a lot more than other family member's may realize.
    3539 and counting.

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  6. #126
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    God, at that age I was playing with my Star Wars action figures...not boffing randoms.

  7. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    Numbers and pdilemma--what do you hope to achieve by nursing any perceived injustices? Do you think this helps either of your family members be better fathers? Does it help them get along better with the children's mothers?

    It's bad enough for parents to have to go thru custody battles. But when other family members butt in and keep stoking the fires, it does another injustice to both the parents and the children involved in the custody dispute by making it harder for them to adjust to the new situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by milanessa View Post
    I was one of those children and absolutely agree with this. Kids pick up on a lot more than other family member's may realize.
    It sounds like both of you are nursing some issues as well so it might be best to take all of this to pm because it does seem to be getting personal or let it go. There are very valid reasons for feelings on both sides of this argument.

    I do think that there are more fathers that would like to have custody that don't ask for one reason or another, some of which have to do with barriers in the current legal system. Some states might have progressed faster than others but there are still some that automatically go with the mother. I think my state is one of those and I have a lot of sympathy for the fathers and the children affected. I don't know about the laws in anyone else's home state so I can't say what happens there and won't make any judgements about it.
    "Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm -- but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves." – T.S. Eliot

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpal2 View Post
    Some states might have progressed faster than others but there are still some that automatically go with the mother. I think my state is one of those
    What state is that? Offhand I don't know of any state that automatically grants custody to mothers. I know many assume that to be the case, but it's an assumption not based on fact.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpal2 View Post
    It sounds like both of you are nursing some issues as well so it might be best to take all of this to pm because it does seem to be getting personal or let it go. There are very valid reasons for feelings on both sides of this argument.
    Yes there are. But my experience is valid as far as it goes and that's all I've stated - my personal experience.. I don't see anything that needs to go to pm (and with who?).
    3539 and counting.

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  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    What state is that? Offhand I don't know of any state that automatically grants custody to mothers. I know many assume that to be the case, but it's an assumption not based on fact.
    According to this, child custody is still granted to the mothers in 70% of child custody cases.

    The legal jargon, I'm sure, is neutral, but that doesn't mean that society is - and the people who make the decisions are still members of society.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    Numbers and pdilemma--what do you hope to achieve by nursing any perceived injustices? Do you think this helps either of your family members be better fathers? Does it help them get along better with the children's mothers?

    It's bad enough for parents to have to go thru custody battles. But when other family members butt in and keep stoking the fires, it does another injustice to both the parents and the children involved in the custody dispute by making it harder for them to adjust to the new situation.
    And how do you know what anyone in my family says or doesn't say to my nephew? Who is, btw, nearly 17 years old, not a small child. He is largely unaware of any of the monetary issues between his parents. He didn't even understand until a few years ago that it is all a written legal agreement. The only discussion my brother, parents or I have had with him involving custody or child support is that it would be better for him to return to this state to attend college where my brother can afford to help with rather low resident tuition which we have already determined he can qualify for and that at that point, my brother will ask a court to end child support because nephew will start college at 18 years and 7 mths and the current decree requires payment until his 19th birthday.

    And I'm sorry that you all have bought into the sainted media driven image of single mothers and don't get that any of them could possibly be a piece of shit. This one increasingly is. She moves around living with other people. They have not had their own home for three years. She has attempted to get on disability because she had treatment (radiation only) for precancerous cells in one breast ten years ago--not a single health problem since per her own declarations. She attempted, when her daughter was 14 years old, to sue six different men (my brother included) she knew while in college for back child support. Her daughter was seven months old when she started college as a non-trad student and met those men. She has offered my nephew pot and let him drink alcohol at home, including shots and Jaeger bombs (the alcohol is legal when served by a parent in her state--but that doesn't excuse the complete lack of judgment). She wants her now 20 year old daughter to get pregnant for the benefits preferably while abroad this semester so they won't have a father "interfering" (again per her own declarations on FB).

    And I will say this...she has spiralled downward in the past seven or eight years since losing both parents to cancer in a short time. Prior to that she was employed and a decent parent. Hard time do strange things to people. And I get that she has had a bad time...but at some point, you have to have your act together. Especially when you have kids. And my parents, ftr, have tried very hard to be supportive to her. After her mother died, she called my mom frequently to talk about it for several months. But she decided to quit her job and take solace in drugs, alcohol, random men and parties and cut off that communication.

    Your notion that my family's sense or numbers123's family's sense that fathers should not have to fight tooth and nail to be involved parents is merely a "perceived injustice" is quite telling. And it is the overwhelming attitude of our society. My brother had to pay a fee to get access to a password to see the kid's school info online and to get other school information because they charge a fee for it to non-custodial parents--just one of the many ways those parents are marginalized from their kids' lives. Outside an intact traditional family, fathers are to be treated as ATMs and nothing more. Our current family law leans strongly in that direction and so does society's perceptions. A father who wants to be involved with his child is in the way but if he doesn't cheerfully pay child support, he is a deadbeat, even if he is merely paying without cheer.

    I hope for the sake of the children in your families that their nuclear families are and remain intact. But if they don't, and you find your side is the non-custodial paternal side some day, you'll see how difficult it can be. Even when visitation is decreed, it is still often at the whim of the mother. My family has had a Christmas celebration the same week as Christmas once since 1999 even though the agreement says they are to trade Christmases. If she isn't where she says she is for someone to pick the kid up or she doesn't take him to the airport...you can't get a lawyer to fix it that quickly. It is what it is.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by numbers123 View Post
    Can I ask why your mom took you to court to see the proceedings?
    I don't remember at the time but it's not like I was 7. I was in college. (17 or 18?)

    I think I was supposed to testify to something, probably that my mom signed over every check she actually got to the college I was going to in order to pay tuition as my dad was one of those always claiming that she spent it all herself when that was clearly not the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louise View Post
    We're talking about a 17 y/o multi-millionaire. Of course this is a minority case
    I was addressing number's comment about women who spend all the money on themselves and not the kids.

    Quote Originally Posted by numbers123 View Post
    I think that everyone's living situations go down in quality with the divorces.
    That's not what the numbers show. (ooh, pun!)

    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    Also stats showed following a divorce, the custodial parent's standard of living usually decreased while the non-custodial standard increased. Now, that was a few years ago, but typically men had better standards of living following divorce than did women.
    They showed that.

    There are lots of reasons for it, a lot of it having to do with the cost of housing, with medical insurance, with what judges are willing to award for child support, and with the fact that there are plenty of guys out there who just don't pay all they owe.

    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    Anecdotally, I've heard a *lot* of baby daddies think they should be able to substitute diapers for child support bc they don't want one penny of their money going to benefit the mom.
    Yeah, my dad would give use $20 on the weekends he say us and tell us to treat ourselves and then tell the judge that he gave the money for child support to us directly. (Because $60 a week is enough to support 3 kids. )

    Quote Originally Posted by mpal2 View Post
    Some states might have progressed faster than others but there are still some that automatically go with the mother.
    There are no states where custody automatically goes to the mother. There are some states that make it really hard for the father to get custody, but even in those states the mother doesn't always get custody.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  13. #133
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    Custody is granted to women in the majority bc most fathers don't request custody. When fathers do (ie in contested custody cases), fathers typically prevail.
    fathers who contest custody are more likely than their wives to win (p. 65). In 82% of the disputed custody cases fathers achieved sole custody despite the fact that only 13% had been involved in child care activities prior to divorce (p. 79 tbl. 5). Moreover, 59% of fathers who won custody litigation had abused their wives, and 50% of fathers who obtained custody through private negotiations had abused their wives (p. 80 tbl. 6).
    http://www.leadershipcouncil.org/1/pas/dv.html

    It's a popular myth that moms have all the power in custody cases, but study after study shows this not to be the case. Remember that back in the day, custody was always given to the father. It wasn't until the age of feminism that women began seeing custody cases take the role of the mother more seriously. But a cursory look at the stats from the eighties and nineties shows that fathers still won contested custody cases the vast majority of the time. Course, most men don't seek custody, so that's why women are more often sole guardians than men. Prancer's contention is men may be persuaded out of pursuing custody and that's why the numbers are so skewed. Could be. But the link above rather indicates the opposite (if you read through the various studies): that women are heavily discouraged during custody proceedings from reporting either spousal or child sexual abuse, and even when such abuse is clearly indicated, women tend to be punished with loss of custody as a result.

    The stats I mentioned in a previous post were to show women may now be seeing a fairer shake in custody cases than before. But the idea that women have been privileged in custody proceedings is terrible historical revisionism.

  14. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    What state is that? Offhand I don't know of any state that automatically grants custody to mothers. I know many asuume that to be the case, but it's an assumption not based on fact.
    Keep in mind that I am discussing residential custody not legal custody

    Most of the automatic residential custody issues come from social attitudes not legal. Many fathers don't request residential custody based on the 80%/20% statistic from a http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/95facts/fs_4312s.htm. I haven't heard of more current studies but most articles, attorneys, etc continue to use it. If you have more current sources feel free to post them.

    I looked up TN and to my surprise, they forged ahead into unknown territory last year.
    http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...-custody_N.htm

    I do see the concern for abuse cases but I can't see it adequately supporting an 80/20 residential custody split. That is just for the cases where the father requested custody. It doesn't measure how many would have liked to request residential custody but felt they didn't have a chance.
    "Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm -- but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves." – T.S. Eliot

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    And how do you know what anyone in my family says or doesn't say to my nephew?
    I didn't say you spoke directly to the nephew. I'm saying you're stoking a general air of resentment regarding the situation, and this has no positive benefit. So why do it?
    And I'm sorry that you all have bought into the sainted media driven image of single mothers and don't get that any of them could possibly be a piece of shit.
    I realize moms can also be terrible parents. My points were 1) you can't make generalizations about custody cases at large based on your personal anecdote, and 2) whether you like the mother is irrelevant because there's a court ruling in this case which your brother has chosen to not contest. You may not agree with the decision, but as you said, it is what it is. You're not helping your brother deal with the situation by carrying on about the short-comings of the mother.
    Your notion that my family's sense or numbers123's family's sense that fathers should not have to fight tooth and nail to be involved parents is merely a "perceived injustice" is quite telling.
    I support the fathers--I don't support the meddling of the fathers' families getting involved in something that is a private matter between two parents.

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    But it isn't just a private matter between two parents. If the families love the child, then the families have a stake too. If the child loves the family, then the child has a stake as well. Hell, the child has a much more at stake than either of the parents.

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    One thing I forgot to add is this point.

    It's been pretty well established that the person (most likely the mother) who obtained residential custody sees a decrease in standards of living. I could see a substantial increase in woman's financial quality by giving more fathers residential custody. With this state being more conservative I would be willing to bet that many women passed on degrees or work experience to be a SAHM. By giving the father the physical custody, the mothers would have an opportunity to go back to school or to get started in the workplace.

    Residential custody arrangements could be revisited when the parents are closer to an equal footing. It could help with a lot of strain on government social programs as well.
    "Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm -- but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves." – T.S. Eliot

  18. #138
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    Legally it's a matter between two parents and the courts over the custody of the children. Children are granted a guardian ad litem to argue for their best interests. Children over a certain age are allowed to testify where they would like to live.

    Those are the principal parties involved. It's a grueling and emotional process as it is without other family members getting involved and stirring up emotions even higher. In the end, both parents are stuck with the court's ruling and have to live with that. By nursing grudges and resentments, it makes it harder for the parents to do that. And ultimately that's cruel to both the parents and children bc they aren't able to move on bc of the meddling from other family members.

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    I went though an ugly divorce back when my son was 11. My ex was making 100k at the time and thanks to him, he wouldn't allow me to work. When I did work while married I had to pay for a babysitter.
    In Ill, the best you can get for support for 1 child is 25%. That's if your ex is telling the truth at the hearings. A good lawyer knows how to make things look a lot less. Since I was blind sided by the divorce, I didn't get any check stubs or anything. Somehow when we went before the judge, my ex's income went from 100k to 50k.
    It also takes 2 years there. So he even took a leave of absence (without pay). He also had deferred payments of his last months check. I got 600 a month in child support. The judge ordered us to split the bills. He didn't pay anything on them. Our car payment was together. I used up all my savings and paid off both cars. He moved in with a GF and my son and I moved into somewhere we could afford (which wasn't much).
    My ex's pay check went back to normal and he lived the good life. My son and I lived month to month. BTW 600 didn't even pay for our rent. Let alone food. His lawyer pointed out that groceries shouldn't have cost us more then 100 a month. Have you ever feed a teenage boy? He never bought him clothing. He never paid for anything but the 600.
    Taking him back to court was 2k each time. Each time his lawyers would get time to lower his pay checks. He had the money to fight. I didn't.
    Yeah I was living it up with child support!! My son is now 25 and I am still paying off stuff my ex had run up bills on and my son's health stuff.
    Oh and he did have joint custody of my son. He just always was busy with doing something. Like on vacations, drinking, clubbing, going to sporting events. Sometimes my son would spend all day waiting for him to show. The only times he would show up is the month before we went before the judge.
    I wasn't out buying anything new for myself.

  20. #140
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    Meanwhile, here's the picture of the baby: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz...mark-pout.html

    What a cutie.
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