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Thread: Hersh article

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    Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    He took his nice pill today!!!

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    Don't hold back, Phil…tell us how you really feel

    4. Patrick Chan is the best men's skater in the world, but judges continue to make a mockery of the sport by giving him ridiculously high component scores when his skating doesn't deserve it.

    How do you give Chan 9.5 (of 10) for skating skills after a Skate Canada short program when he botched an opening quad and did a double axel instead of a triple? One judge did, and four of the other nine scored him 9 or higher.

    And how did he get seven scores of 9 or more on skating skills in a free skate when he fell twice? I know the sport is more than jumping, but those scores are an insult to everyone's intelligence, Chan's included.
    Oh goody. More fodder for the Chanflation debates .

    8. Near the end of last season, I wrote a column addressing the issue of how difficult it would be for Rachael Flatt to be a full-time skater and a full-time student taking demanding courses at Stanford. Her dismal performance in the free skate last weekend at Skate Canada only underscored the nature of the challenge, especially at a point where her skating career continues to founder.

    Flatt's free skate score, 73.99, was eight points below her previous Grand Prix nadir at the 2010 series final (and eight points below the next worst performance at Skate Canada). She now has finished dead last in her last two Grand Prix events, plus 12th and 9th at the last two world championships.

    I have suggested Flatt would do herself a favor by leaving the sport behind after a fine career that includes a U.S. title, an Olympic appearance and three world meet appearances. Readers reply that it should be her choice, and if she loves the sport, she should continue.

    To anyone who saw Flatt's expression at the end of the Skate Canada free skate: do you think she was loving anything about a sport whose international judges haven't really liked her since the 2009 World Championships?
    OUCH. As much as I don't like to agree with him, I think he does have a point here.

    10. For the first time in my three decades covering the sport, I am compelled to pay a lot of attention to ice dance -- because the top two teams are so compelling. Reigning world champions Meryl Davis and Charlie White of the U.S. and reigning Olympic champions Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir of Canada are so skilled, so entertaining and so close in ability that the competition between them from now until the 2014 Olympics should be riveting.

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    I wish the Canadians would scrap the vocal sections of their free dance music, which distracts from more than enhances their brilliant skating.
    I can't believe I'm saying this about something Phil Hersh wrote, but

    And I kind of agree with his comments on Flatt, too. She's had a great career, but it's pretty clear she's peaked and she's got so many more interests and things she wants to accomplish. I think she'd ultimately be happier if she put all of her focus into those.

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    10. For the first time in my three decades covering the sport, I am compelled to pay a lot of attention to ice dance -- because the top two teams are so compelling. Reigning world champions Meryl Davis and Charlie White of the U.S. and reigning Olympic champions Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir of Canada are so skilled, so entertaining and so close in ability that the competition between them from now until the 2014 Olympics should be riveting.
    Oh, what I would give to go out for drinks with Phil Hersh and Marina Anissina!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    Oh, what I would give to go out for drinks with Phil Hersh and Marina Anissina!
    I'll buy the first round!

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    It would help to say what the article is about or mention its title in the thread title.

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    drinky typo pbp, closet hugger
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    6. Mirai Nagasu? Mirai? Nagasu. Mirai? Nagasu? The most talented of all the current U.S. women once again left more questions than answers with badly flawed performances in both programs at Skate Canada.
    too true, sigh...
    Q: Why can't I read the competition threads?
    A: Competition forums on the board are available to those with a Season Pass or a premium membership How to View Kiss & Cry

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    1. Performances so far have been sloppy yes, but understanbly given the longer previous season which means skaters have had a shorter break and less time to be comfortable with their programs and tricks.

    2./3. Tuktamisheva skates strongly but she doesn't have 'it' yet. As I said in the other thread, too much arms, too little feet. I like Sotnikova better but apparently she is still recovering from an injury? The real battle between the little divas will be GPF and Jr Worlds. (Is Lipnitskaya age-eligible for Jr. Worlds?)

    4. I don't understand why everyone is arguing with Math. Comapring to his Worlds skate, all his PCS dropped due to the worse performance, SS, TR and CH were affected less because they are not as much impacted by mistakes, but he was dinged with 0.6 off PE and IN for his mistakes which was pretty significant. If someone is worth a 9.5 when great, he doesn't suddenly become a 7 after 2 falls. The same is true under 6.0 - I am thinking Kwan's 1997 Nationals skate.

    5. Very excited about Hanyu and Abbott. I unfortunately feel the same about Abbott and Oda - the moment has passed for their break-through. They are nice skaters which will keep improving but will probably never medal at Worlds let alone contend for titles. Interesting that if Dornbush gets a silver in China, he will still be in the running for GPF.

    6. Nagasu has gone to that Cohen stage where, despite all the talent and wow factors in the world, a strong skate with 1 mistake or less is already a cause for celebration. USA needs its Kwan back.

    7. Czisny's uneven performance is to be expected given the much more ambitious content. I actually really like her short but find a large part of her long to be extremely monotonous and boring.

    8. If Flatt had rightfully bowed out during GP assignment stage, who would have been the US lady next in line to receive GP assignments? I am going to be so mad if it is Cesario (because it means she didn't have to be stuck in JGP, which also means Gracie Gold would have had another assignment).
    Last edited by Marco; 11-02-2011 at 08:35 AM.

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    It's beyond hope to think that Hersh, a journalist, might actually read the PCS criteria for skating skills.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    2./3. Tuktamisheva skates strongly but she doesn't have 'it' yet. As I said in the other thread, too much arms, too little feet. I like Sotnikova better but apparently she is still recovering from an injury? The real battle between the little divas will be GPF and Jr Worlds. (Is Lipnitskaya age-eligible for Jr. Worlds?)
    Adelina didn't do her big combos but I thought everything else jump wise looked pretty good. Not necessarily sold on the programs, but it doesn't look like Adelina's lets say not able to do the jumps or anything like that. Adelina would do well without those 3/3s. She has other things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    4. I don't understand why everyone is arguing with Math. Comapring to his Worlds skate, all his PCS dropped due to the worse performance, SS, TR and CH were affected less because they are not as much impacted by mistakes, but he was dinged with 0.6 off PE and IN for his mistakes which was pretty significant. If someone is worth a 9.5 when great, he doesn't suddenly become a 7 after 2 falls. The same is true under 6.0 - I am thinking Kwan's 1997 Nationals skate.
    I hardly thought this worst case ever in Chan's PCS myself. It was good to see he wasn't given too much of an advantage over the others. However one could point out, if a skater is stumbling over footwork/choregraphy, shouldn't that kind of affect the S/S score just a little. Because it suggests a bit out of controlness. Even if its due to their difficulty. I felt the same with Kostner vs Czisny in the short (and Kostner for long periods of time). Normally Kostner's SS are better, but when Kostner's out of control a bit the marks maybe deserve to be done, vs someone who was in full control. I think in general the main problem is the concept of a set marks that never change, even based on the performance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    6. Nagasu has gone to that Cohen stage where, despite all the talent and wow factors in the world, a strong skate with 1 mistake or less is already a cause for celebration. USA needs its Kwan back.

    Its an insult IMO to Cohen to compare Nagasu to her. Say what you will about Sasha, but Sasha never gave up on a performance and was pretty consistent throughout. Sasha was never a good/great jumper and probably never had it in her to go completely clean. But she always put in valient efforts and skated well enough to medal. Not to mention Sasha always showed up in shape/fit. There was no one day Sasha lands 6 gorgeous triples performances light out, next week Sasha performs like a robot (with underrotated jumps one could argue Mirai was kindly judged) etc with Cohen.

    I'm not saying that Sasha didn't have her issues, she did it seems. But I think USFSA and the ISU wishes Nagasu was like Sasha.

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    Its an insult IMO to Cohen to compare Nagasu to her. Say what you will about Sasha, but Sasha never gave up on a performance and was pretty consistent throughout. Sasha was never a good/great jumper and probably never had it in her to go completely clean. But she always put in valient efforts and skated well enough to medal. Not to mention Sasha always showed up in shape/fit. There was no one day Sasha lands 6 gorgeous triples performances light out, next week Sasha performs like a robot (with underrotated jumps one could argue Mirai was kindly judged) etc with Cohen.
    Yes, exactly- with all their similarities (silly errors, aggravating their respective fans), that's a MAJOR difference between the two skaters. Cohen, as mentioned, rarely gave up on a performance after making a mistake. I keep saying Nagasu needs to watch (and re-watch) Cohen's 2006 Oly FS and learn that it's not completely over yet after you fall. It's not so much the mistakes that's killing Nagasu as it is her attitude afterward. She stops performing and that throws more points away- likely even more than the mistake itself. Hard to believe Carroll has not pounded that fact into her (or if he has, why she hasn't listened even after seeing Czisny hang onto a win after her mistake-filled FS)

    That said, Nagasu is facing a stronger overall competitive field (IMO) than Cohen did...I bet if the latter came up in this era, she wouldn't have any medals either...(yes, I know I'm asking for it on that comment, but based on her showing at 2010 Nats...)

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    "Queen Tu(k)t" - Phil has christened Liza. LOVE IT!!!
    Dick Button Historical Quote of the Month: "Good for you, Lucinda Ruh!"

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    I wasn't so much comparing their attack mode at all, just how they live up to their hype.

    They were both hyped to be the next best thing and "would be unbeatable if clean". And then they just never were. And instead of waiting for them to become the next Kwan and to shine every time they skate, fans have slowly come to their senses and understood that them shining or skating clean is more of an exception than a rule.

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    i agree with the Hersh article, on several points --except one
    i am like fellow people who states rachel should decide herself when to quit and not listen to us, media, fans, but herself. she herself only knows what she want.

    d/w and v/m is going to make it hard for everyone else to beat them.
    the way both of them are going it will be fun to watch and see how the others play out like russian teams, p/b, shibs, w/p , italian team

    elizaveta might need a bit more sparkle, but unfortunate so does the U.S. ladies.
    as far as patrick chan-the are scoring him the ways they always have-
    he has improved in artistry.

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    How do you give Chan 9.5 (of 10) for skating skills after a Skate Canada short program when he botched an opening quad and did a double axel instead of a triple? One judge did, and four of the other nine scored him 9 or higher.

    And how did he get seven scores of 9 or more on skating skills in a free skate when he fell twice? I know the sport is more than jumping, but those scores are an insult to everyone's intelligence, Chan's included.
    Um, Phil? Time to review the ISU criteria for awarding points for skating skills:

    • Balance and rhythmic knee
    action and precision of foot
    placement
    • Flow and effortless glide
    • Cleanness and sureness of deep
    edges, steps and turns
    • Power/energy and acceleration
    • Mastery of multi directional
    skating
    • Mastery of one foot skating
    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf

    Nowhere does it say that falls should affect the SS mark and you know why? Because falls on jumps have their own category where they are marked and it's not part of PCS.

    Marking off falls in TES and PCS both would be dinging the skater twice for falls and rather redundant, innit...

    The rest of the article is accurate IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RD View Post

    That said, Nagasu is facing a stronger overall competitive field (IMO) than Cohen did...I bet if the latter came up in this era, she wouldn't have any medals either...(yes, I know I'm asking for it on that comment, but based on her showing at 2010 Nats...)
    Pardon the double post but really, which one of the great champions of Cohen's era would have had medals now? Not even Kwan, certainly not late career Kwan. That's is almost as irrelevant as saying Peggy wouldn't have medals now. The CoP has moved on, the sport has moved on and even this season with the Russian girls coming out party, the sport has moved on yet again.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Um, Phil? Time to review the ISU criteria for awarding points for skating skills:


    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf

    Nowhere does it say that falls should affect the SS mark and you know why? Because falls on jumps have their own category where they are marked and it's not part of PCS.

    Marking off falls in TES and PCS both would be dinging the skater twice for falls and rather redundant, innit...

    The rest of the article is accurate IMO.
    But I don't think it is redundent. If a skater falls multiple times, it reflects the quality of the performance as a whole IMO, and I think they either need to hit skaters harder for falls on TES. Or they need to start docking them somewhere in the PCS mark. Four fall wins when other good skaters skate well is ridiculous. I'm not saying one fall should knock everyone out. But if Chan had skated like he did a year ago at Skate Canada, at the Olympics and had won, that would have been another huge scandal and would have probably turned the public of the sport forever. Of course in that case the judges I bet would have docked his PCS. But still.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    But I don't think it is redundent. If a skater falls multiple times, it reflects the quality of the performance as a whole IMO, and I think they either need to hit skaters harder for falls on TES. Or they need to start docking them somewhere in the PCS mark. Four fall wins when other good skaters skate well is ridiculous. I'm not saying one fall should knock everyone out. But if Chan had skated like he did a year ago at Skate Canada, at the Olympics and had won, that would have been another huge scandal and would have probably turned the public of the sport forever. Of course in that case the judges I bet would have docked his PCS. But still.
    Kindly show me in the criteria for SS where falls on jumps should be counted. Jumps have their own dedicated section: they already dock them for falls in TES. Why should they be docked twice?

    For someone like Mirai who didn't fall in her SC free-skate, should her PCS be stellar? She didn't fall, you know.

    We have two different sections to address two different aspects of skating for a reason. What ISU should or should not be doing in your opinion is not relevant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Kindly show me in the criteria for SS where falls on jumps should be counted. Jumps have their own dedicated section: they already dock them for falls in TES. Why should they be docked twice?

    For someone like Mirai who didn't fall in her SC free-skate, should her PCS be stellar? She didn't fall, you know.

    We have two different sections to address two different aspects of skating for a reason. What ISU should or should not be doing in your opinion is not relevant.
    I never said that falls alone should affect PCS did I. And maybe falls (accept for lets say on footwork choregraphy) on jumps shouldn't affect SS. But I don't think the system we have currently punishes errors enough. I'm sorry but multiple falls have a cumulative effect.

    Mirai did other things in her program that deserved to lose PCS. She was off the music, didn't attempt to perform etc. I'd give Wagner with a fall higher PCS too. Its not about just falls for me, never was. But really messy programs are really messy programs and should not be rewarded. And I'm sorry I'm quite convinced in this system that if your a top skater, you can absolutely get away with being very messy. Actual execution has to count. You can't have half of the total score being predetermined.

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