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  1. #1
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    Frank Carroll on Elizaveta Tuktamisheva

    In Beverley Smith's article about Skate Canada in the Globe and Mail, Frank Carroll offers his thoughts about Elizaveta Tuktamisheva. Do you agree or disagree with the following assertions about Elizaveta's skating?

    1.) Elizaveta is "a little girl who has very tiny legs and she can rotate like a bat out of hell.. She’s doing triple-triples like nothing while these other girls are more mature and struggling with it."

    2.) In her long program, Elizaveta shows "no maturity, looking like she should be in a novice or junior program."

    3.) "Elizaveta will have to learn to skate much more like a woman, with maturity." (Not a direct quote, but a view attributed to him in the article.)

    4.) "If the judges scored her correctly, they would give her high technical marks, but (she) should be scored at six or seven for the presentation marks." (Not a direct quote, but a view attributed to him in the article.)

    5. "Tuktamisheva may turn out to be a marvelous skater, come time." (Not a direct quote, but a view attributed to him in the article.)

  2. #2
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    Agree with all statements.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

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    Frank is wise.
    Those who never succeed themselves are always the first to tell you how.

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    Um I wish someone wrote an article about what Frank thought of Mirai's performance...

    Anyways, I think his assessment is fair. Liza is only 14, so her lack of maturity is going to be evident. We also have to see how the puberty monster affects her. Although her jump technique is nice, her jumps aren't that big. And she probably won't ever become like Kwan. Mishin's skaters are never packaged properly, and they're all about the jumps.

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    ABSOFOCKINGLUTELY. At least Frank Carroll is now not as totally boring and PC as he has been in the past. Princess Tut is nothing until she gets some puberty under her belt, unless the Olys happen before then.

    Absolutely in praise of the new FC.

    Just read the entire article. There is nothing that FC that any reasonable person would disagree with. Mirai took herself out, and if I know psychology FC has NO HOPE for Mirai ever. I think his quotes were just someone who is smart, been there done there. He's not protecting his client, he is TRYING to protect the sport.

    Princess TUT 0, Frank Carroll 2
    Last edited by Louise; 10-31-2011 at 12:41 AM.

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    And the point Frank Carroll is trying to make is what exactly?
    Is he implying that skaters of that age and of that complection should not be allowed to compete and/or win at senior level?
    Is he suggesting that to qualify for senior competition one must go through a new medical examination prohibiting tiny legs?
    Or is he suggesting that 14 y.o skater if allowed into seniors should look like and skate like 25 year old woman?

    I would have more appriciated if Frank Carroll focused his comments on things like Elizaveta's exquisite technical skills which should be an indicator of her future rather than trying to foolishly and unconvincingly diminish the win of his skater's direct competitor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by millipied View Post
    And the point Frank Carroll is trying to make is what exactly?
    Is he implying that skaters of that age and of that complection should not be allowed to compete and/or win at senior level?
    Is he suggesting that to qualify for senior competition one must go through a new medical examination prohibiting tiny legs?
    Or is he suggesting that 14 y.o skater if allowed into seniors should look like and skate like 25 year old woman?

    I would have more appriciated if Frank Carroll focused his comments on things like Elizaveta's exquisite technical skills which should be an indicator of her future rather than trying to foolishly and unconvincingly diminish the win of his skater's direct competitor.
    Wow, talk about defensive. Every single question you ask is pretty ridiculous and weren't even suggested by Frank's quotes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by burntBREAD View Post
    Wow, talk about defensive. Every single question you ask is pretty ridiculous and weren't even suggested by Frank's quotes.
    Ok, so what's the point he is making then? Enlighten me.

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    I am under the impression that all of Frank Carroll's quotes in the article came before the Ladies FS on Saturday.

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    1) Hell no. As I said in the other thread, there's no shortage of Russian juniors who are only completing triple-triple combinations because they are young and have temporarily tiny little bodies. Julia Lipnitskaya, Daria Medvedeva, etc. Liza, on the other hand, has flawless technique on every jump except the flip, which has a minor lip sometimes. For her size, her jumps get decent height and ice coverage, and she usually has excellent landings with full control. In the video of her triple axel that's on Youtube, she does difficult steps into and out of it. She's an excellent jumper right now because she is an excellent jumper, period. I'm confident that her jumps will survive when she gets older, if she does not have injuries. Ironically, a skater who lost her ability to do triple-triples and rotate jumps fully due to getting older was Mirai. Frank is not responsible for the bad technique she came to him with, but people living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
    2) That's a bit harsh. She looks like a very young senior lady, but still like a senior lady. Perhaps I'm biased because of her Japan Open performance of that LP, but I don't think the program is quite as bad as he is making it out to be.
    3) Take out the somewhat sexual overtones to the whole "little girl vs mature woman" phrasing, and I agree. The old code for artistic gymnastics used to value "virtuousity" very highly, and I think that's a pretty good term to describe what juniorish skaters tend to be lacking. Panache, virtuosity, ease, dynamism, etc. She also needs better skating skills, but that's more technical than anything else.
    4) Yep, with the caveat that I think her P/E mark should be a bit higher than all the others, immaturity and all.
    5) Yep.

    Basically, he's completely right except for the way he's trying to attribute her jumping abilities to her youth and size.

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    1. And? Slutskaya was still doing triple-triples in her 20s. Ito was too. Good technique as I believe Tuktamisheva has should do her well. As it has done with Kim. Of course things can change but even if she does mature she still has a bloody good chance to be better than nearly everyone else out there.

    2. Disagree. She looks better than many of the age-eligible senior skaters. I see a skater with forced choregraphy but I certainly don't see a novice there and as mentioned she is already better than many senior skaters.

    3. And? So could a lot of age-eligible seniors. No doubt she'll improve with age.

    4. LOL she was scored in the sixes. So not sure the point of this at all. I would have given her higher transition score.

    5. She already beat Negasu, Suzuki, Flatt, Wagner and Leonova. I think Carroll she is already well on her way.

    Carroll is a dickhead and you'd think having now won a Gold he'd be a bit more happier. Instead he sounds like a nasty idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by millipied View Post
    Ok, so what's the point he is making then? Enlighten me.
    Well, firstly the author of the article, even before they quoted anything, was talking about Liza's incredible technical ability but rationalizing why she had lower PCS than Suzuki or Wagner.

    Frank is saying that Liza is excellent technically but has much to grow in terms of performance. Yes, he overemphasizes it a bit but there's nothing where he says she should be banned from senior competition or whatever you suggested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by millipied View Post
    And the point Frank Carroll is trying to make is what exactly?
    Is he implying that skaters of that age and of that complection should not be allowed to compete and/or win at senior level?
    Is he suggesting that to qualify for senior competition one must go through a new medical examination prohibiting tiny legs?
    Or is he suggesting that 14 y.o skater if allowed into seniors should look like and skate like 25 year old woman?

    I would have more appriciated if Frank Carroll focused his comments on things like Elizaveta's exquisite technical skills which should be an indicator of her future rather than trying to foolishly and unconvincingly diminish the win of his skater's direct competitor.
    I think you're reading too much into the article and quotes. She is tiny and there's no telling what she'll do over the next few years. Remember the problems Asada had going from 14-19? She skates like a 14 yo, which isn't a bad thing since she's 14. She won the competition fair and square because of her technical skills. Good for her. No one knows what she'll become at this point. Hopefully, she'll keep her jumps as she grows and matures and will be an amazing skater. She's good now; she's not amazing.
    Those who never succeed themselves are always the first to tell you how.

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    Quote Originally Posted by burntBREAD View Post
    Well, firstly the author of the article, even before they quoted anything, was talking about Liza's incredible technical ability but rationalizing why she had lower PCS than Suzuki or Wagner.

    Frank is saying that Liza is excellent technically but has much to grow in terms of performance. Yes, he overemphasizes it a bit but there's nothing where he says she should be banned from senior competition or whatever you suggested.
    I am not suggesting anything. I am just questioning the motivation AND the particular questionable choice of words. As you just confirmed yourself. What does anything he mentions has to do with her age or her body? and if it does, what does that mean?
    Frank Carroll is developing Patrick Chan's "foot in mouth" desease.

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    Quote Originally Posted by millipied View Post
    And the point Frank Carroll is trying to make is what exactly?
    Is he implying that skaters of that age and of that complection should not be allowed to compete and/or win at senior level?
    Is he suggesting that to qualify for senior competition one must go through a new medical examination prohibiting tiny legs?
    Or is he suggesting that 14 y.o skater if allowed into seniors should look like and skate like 25 year old woman?

    I would have more appriciated if Frank Carroll focused his comments on things like Elizaveta's exquisite technical skills which should be an indicator of her future rather than trying to foolishly and unconvincingly diminish the win of his skater's direct competitor.
    What did you read?

    His comments were spot on, she is immature, SHE'S 14! She can jump better than than girls who already hit puberty and have more mature bodies. As he said, she MAY become a great skater (maybe knowing full well she may not survive puberty) but if she can she will be marvelous. She should have high technical marks and lower PCS, I don't see a problem with his comments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    What did you read?

    His comments were spot on, she is immature, SHE'S 14! She can jump better than than girls who already hit puberty and have more mature bodies. As he said, she MAY become a great skater (maybe knowing full well she may not survive puberty) but if she can she will be marvelous. She should have high technical marks and lower PCS, I don't see a problem with his comments.
    Thank you.

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    I was at the event. She needs more ice coverage, but she surprised me with the maturity of her skating. She interpreted the music well, and was confident and polished - she didn't look junior to me. There's more room to grow of course, but I wonder if Frank would say the same things now that the event is over and he has seen both of her programs. She looks to me like a young senior lady with enormous potential (although growth issues could still sidetrack her).

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by millipied View Post
    I am not suggesting anything. I am just questioning the motivation AND the particular questionable choice of words. As you just confirmed yourself. What does anything he mentions has to do with her age or her body? and if it does, what does that mean?
    Frank Carroll is developing Patrick Chan's "foot in mouth" desease.
    You suggested:

    "And the point Frank Carroll is trying to make is what exactly?
    Is he implying that skaters of that age and of that complection should not be allowed to compete and/or win at senior level?
    Is he suggesting that to qualify for senior competition one must go through a new medical examination prohibiting tiny legs?
    Or is he suggesting that 14 y.o skater if allowed into seniors should look like and skate like 25 year old woman?"

    Uhh, it's physically easier for a small, slighter (under 5 feet, 70-80 lbs) person to launch themselves and rotate quickly and land? And usually small people are younger? Maybe that's what he's suggesting.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfisher View Post
    I think you're reading too much into the article and quotes. She is tiny and there's no telling what she'll do over the next few years. Remember the problems Asada had going from 14-19? She skates like a 14 yo, which isn't a bad thing since she's 14. She won the competition fair and square because of her technical skills. Good for her. No one knows what she'll become at this point. Hopefully, she'll keep her jumps as she grows and matures and will be an amazing skater. She's good now; she's not amazing.
    I am not saying she is amazing. Hell I am not even a fan. There are at least two more talented junior skaters right now and I am not even talking about senior ladies.
    I am just sick and tired of every single comment about Liza, Adelina, Julia, Gracie etc. is pretty much reduced to "blah, blah, blah, lets' just wait and see how they going to gain 100 pounds and grow 5 feet tall". Asada has never been in the same league technically as some of the current juniors talked about and all her current problems are exactly because of the poor technical skills gained at this age. So I do not get the comparison.
    Why not compare to Yu-Na Kim?
    No, everyone trying to pick poor Mao as an example of what is going to happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rfisher View Post
    I think you're reading too much into the article and quotes. She is tiny and there's no telling what she'll do over the next few years. Remember the problems Asada had going from 14-19?
    Sorry, this is just a load of BS. They are different skaters. Mao Asada had awful technique on her flip, never had a true lutz to begin with, always had iffy rotation on her triple-triple combinations, and messed up her salchow technique by trying to train a quad, which threw off her timing on the triple. Even with all that, a lot of her problems as she got older were due to an increasing scrutinity the IJS tech panels took with full rotation of jumps and correct edge take-offs on lutz/flip, that had not been present when she was a junior and even early in senior. The constant parade of coaching changes certainly didn't help either.

    Liza, by contrast, has excellent technique and is already succeeding in getting full credit for rotation on her triple-triples most of the time, and is not getting edge calls on her lutz. If teeny-tiny junior Mao Asada who weighed 70 pounds had competed under the same scrutiny, she would have protocols lit up with <, <<, and e. The situations are not analogous, and anyone who knows anything about jump technique knows that. Frank Carroll knows an awful lot about jump technique, so he's pretty much just ragging on Liza for no reason other than to diminish what she has already accomplished. I admire him a great deal, but call a spade a spade. It's pure trash talk.

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