Thoughts no US getting only one judge at Worlds

[Aussie Willy]

The only reason I care about spots is it makes me sad when good skaters have to stay home. I realize World's is about representing all the federations, but I feel like it should be a chance for all the best skaters in the world to compete against each other. A third American lady is going to do a lot better than some of the low ranking skaters, but she won't get to go. I feel the same way when the US has 5 amazing ladies, and only 3 get to go. Or Japan. Or any other powerhouse.

There is no competition where the ALL of the top skaters compete against each other.

So for all the talk on this forum about objections to judges having a bias to their countries of origin, some people still want it to happen because they feel that their skaters will get an advantage. And by implication they want to encourage political judging.

[skateboy]

However, in this system I do believe it is MUCH harder to "cheat", as there are so many marks given, and if really over or under marking to the corriodor set by the judges of the panel, then there could be issues and assessments as a result. The corridor is formed by ALL THE JUDGES on the panel for the puposes of establishing the corridor for which a judge is held to standard, the OAC counts 1 1/2 times for the corridor, the referee 2 times for championship events; other events, the referee 2 times, and since no OAC is on site and the viewing is done off site, there is no adding of the OAC to the corridor for other events.

[ribenka]

That would certainly be a bigger problem than the US only having one judge!

[aliceanne]

Just out of curiosity, do some countries HAVE more international judges than others? I know the judges are volunteers, but doesn't the training system for judges vary from country to country? Do some countries subsidize training for judges and others not offer any financial support?

[gkelly]

Just out of curiosity, do some countries HAVE more international judges than others?

Yes.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/pa...v-list,00.html

ISU Communication 1692 lists all the ISU and international judges and referees qualified for the 2011-12 season, for the federations to verify. Communication 1699 contains corrections (additions and deletions) based on the federations' verification.

Not surprisingly, the federations with the most international officials are the Grand Prix countries, and Germany.

As I understand it (Rule 582.4), the federations tell the ISU which events they want to submit one judge for and then for each event there is a draw for which countries get one judge. But they don't submit the specific judges by name for the draw.

So ultimately it doesn't matter how many total judges the country has -- they can submit one for each discipline at a championship and have the possibility of getting assigned to all four disciplines as long as they have one qualified dance judge and two qualified singles/pairs judges (because individual judges aren't supposed to judge more than two events at the same competition).

[Morry Stillwell]

morry: there were ISU Championship judges on the panel at SA. You can have either international or ISU CHAMPIONSHIP judges. Grand prix final and all championship events must have ISU Championship judges. DO federations ask judges to show their personal protocol to the powers that be? Even if random for each skater on the protocol, they could ask to see the personal papers of the judge, thus still intimadating the judge. However, in this system I do believe it is MUCH harder to "cheat", as there are so many marks given, and if really over or under marking to the corriodor set by the judges of the panel, then there could be issues and assessments as a result. The corridor is formed by ALL THE JUDGES on the panel for the puposes of establishing the corridor for which a judge is held to standard, the OAC counts 1 1/2 times for the corridor, the referee 2 times for championship events; other events, the referee 2 times, and since no OAC is on site and the viewing is done off site, there is no adding of the OAC to the corridor for other events. JUDGES set the corridor by adding the marks together for example interpretation, then divided by the number of judges on the panel, adding the referee's marks for 2 times, the OAC for 1 1/2 times, and the result is the allowed corridor for the judge for assessments purposes of which the judge must fall inbetween those numbers. In all other events other than Championship events such as the Grand Prixs of jrs. and srs, the evaluating is done by OAC members at home via the dvd of the events, and on those the referee counts 2 times, but no OAC is counting, they just evaluate. SO truly the judges DO SET the corridor.

Joe has it right and I blew it. At Grand Prix event a judge's country is announced even if they are a Championship Judge.

[5Ali3]

So for all the talk on this forum about objections to judges having a bias to their countries of origin, some people still want it to happen because they feel that their skaters will get an advantage. And by implication they want to encourage political judging.

There's more than one way for an international judge to influence the results of an international competition and most of those ways don't involve cheating or political judging.

Martian Judge on Ladies' panel: Oh hello, Mercurian Judge! [I'll skip the pat pat kiss kiss part.] Saw your girl on practice today.

Mercurian Judge on Pairs' panel: Yes, MercurianLady1 has improved a great deal this year. She's added triiiple Luuutz and is pushing the younger girls. Much improvement, much improvement. Watch her footwork: so much speed with clean edges! I saw the pair today, how do you say, MartianPair1 and MartianPair1?

Martian Ladies' Judge: Oh yes, aren't they wonderful! You know what impresses me the most? How they interpret that long program, with so much emotion. They truly skate as one and use the transitions beautifully to tell the story. At Nationals, they just took my breath away! An they're so fast with such lovely flow. Take a look at MartianPair1's extension in the lifts - such beautiful positions, I don't know how she does that! Of course, MartianPair2 and MartianPair2 are no slouch in the lift department. All level 4s and nicely executed, too! Still a little rough around the edges, but watch the height on the triple twist. They could be something.

Mercurian Pair Judge: I will certainly look for them in practice; you know me, I luuuuve high triple twists! Oh dear, your glass is empty. Please, let me.

Has anyone fudged marks based on nationality? No. Has anyone tried to promote the skater from their own country in the event that they're judging? No. Has anyone managed the impression of their country's skaters to someone judging the event by pointing out the strengths of their country's skaters? That's not political judging, per se, but I would call it politics - and it happens not just in international figure skating, but in business, government politics, etc. There's a difference between introducing people to what you want them to notice and outright political judging.

The more bodies on the ground to hear what's being said and say what wants to be said, the better. That includes association staff, Team Leaders, judges, tech panel officials, athletes (unless they're Juniors: one year, the Team Leader for JGF nearly passed out when she discovered that she had something like 23 athletes, all under the age of 18), etc.

I'm not trying to defend this practice necessarily; I'm trying to point out that there are plenty of ways to influence the marks given to a skater without manipulating the marks that one gives or making deals that involve manipulation of marks.

[jlai]

Martian Judge on Ladies' panel: Oh hello, Mercurian Judge! [I'll skip the pat pat kiss kiss part.] Saw your girl on practice today.

Is this the part where the Judge says that skater is on a totally different planet?