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Thread: Quad or Bust???

  1. #41
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    ^^ Yes, Wyliefan, that's why the question mark in the title of this thread. No quad was needed in the free program at SA to win the whole event, although granted, it was a very "rusty hoot" of a competition.

    ETA: Hope KVDP doesn't let the harsh criticism, the judges' lack of faith, or his poor showing at SC affect him from pushing forward and doing his best at Europeans and Worlds. Give it your all, Kevin! Critics take a flying leap.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 11-01-2011 at 07:13 PM.

  2. #42
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    People have been saying "quad or bust" since Urmanov. The only time a quad is necessary is when your competitor is your equal or better and manages to land his.

    The fact is the only top reliable quad-doers have been Plushy and Yags. Post-Yags/Plush, the guy who lands quads all competition long this week is a splatfest the next. Or, he does all his quads and can't do a 3A to save his life. The jump is just too iffy to be a must-have week after week. At this point, a Chan doesn't need a quad unless his nearest competitor is hitting on all cylinders, including a quad, probably two. These days it's rare for ANY skater to hit a program out of the park, real quality blade control is not much in evidence, so having a quad is not going to win you every game. To me, right now Chan is the closest thing to a sure bet we have because he has a semi-reliable quad AND blade control no one currently skating can touch. If he never does another quad he's still going to win his share until someone else steps up. Everybody out there at the top level right now is pretty accident-prone. (That means you, especially, Tak!)

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    What does "quality of skating" mean to the judges is the real mystery.
    What do you think it means or should mean?

    Do you want to learn what judges think it means?

    Where do you live? (Answer in general terms here, or PM me.) How far is the closest rink, and what kind of rink is it? Maybe I can suggest some ways to get a better sense of skating quality, which is not something that is easy to appreciate on video.

    Also, its problematical trying to decipher what IJS changes actually mean this season.
    The changes in the quad entries in the Scale of Values mean that rotating 4 times is more valued -- worth more points -- this year than it used to be. That's all.

    It doesn't mean that rotating 4 times in the air guarantees a win or guaranteed a higher placement than someone who doesn't rotate 4 times in the air. Each quad is only one element and can only earn so many points -- quite a lot now, but not always enough to make up or deficits in other areas.

    The ISU will never pass a rule that guarantees a win or forbids a win based on presence of a particular jump or a certain number or kind of mistake. They will spell out rewards and penalties, but every performance is going to have a different balance of those rewards and penalties. The win will depend on how they all add up.

    I prefer to trust my own eyes and sensibilities in any case.
    So you can develop your own opinion of which performances you like better and which you would place first if you were the sole arbiter of the placements. And often you won't agree with the results of the panel.

    Even highly trained judges (and tech specialists) are not the sole arbiters of results. It takes a whole panel -- well, two whole panels now -- to determine results. Any individual on the panel may disagree with the final outcome. They participate in the process according to their own eyes and sensibilities, applying the rules as they have been trained to understand them. And that's the best they can do.

    Guess the judges wanted to give KVDP credit for quad and solid skating and staying on his feet, and felt Kosuka made too many mistakes that his superior ss could not surmount. That still does not account for why the Brez prevailed (except for how much judges love him) without a quad in either program and so many misses in the fp. Also, does not account for Ricky being dissed in the sp.
    The way the judging system works now, judges aren't deciding placements. They're just judging each element as they see it, and evaluating each program component area for the whole program as they see them. They may have a guess or a general sense of who they're putting in first, second, third, or last place based on who they give the most higher or lower numbers to and by how much. But they don't know all the level calls that the tech panel is making, and they don't have the means to keep track of all the element base values, GOE values, and factored PCS for a skater, then subtract deductions if any and add the LP scores to those from the SP.

    If you asked a judge immediately after a skater's performance, before the scores and standings are announced in the arena, where that skater would place, many of them would guess wrong. Sometimes because the rest of the panel disagreed with that judge's assessment. Sometimes because the judge's rough estimate of how the math might work out was wrong. Sometimes because they were unaware that a good skater had many level 1 elements, etc. Or any combination of the above and perhaps other reasons as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    However, if the judges agreed with all you who feel KVDP "can't skate," and is no better than a juvenile, intermediate or novice skater,
    This is hyperbole, which doesn't really help making the case. Other posters have tempered it later in this thread.

    More like, VDP can skate adequately for a senior international competitor, but no better. Some of the guys he competes against are a lot better than just OK. So he gets average scores and they get good scores. One or two jumps may not make up the difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    To me, the situation also indicates that as usual IJS is inconsistent, complicated and constantly in need of fixes, often based on how the wind blows from season to season.
    Or even from event to event, or between different groups of skaters in the same event. Sometimes the stronger skater is much stronger in skating and only moderately weaker in jumps, other times the stronger jumper is much stronger in jumping and only moderately weaker in skating. And then you also have to factor in things like spins and all the different transitions and performance/execution and choreo and interpretation criteria.

    There is never going to be a rule that jumps will always outweigh skating or skating will always outweigh jumps. There wasn't under 6.0 and there isn't and won't be under IJS. The best they can do is say to skaters "This is how much each element earns you to start with. This is the range of points you'll lose for certain kinds of mistakes. This is the range of extra points you can earn for quality on these elements, according to the judges' average evaluation. These are the ranges of points available for overall skating ability, transitions, performance, choreography, and interpretation, and general criteria for how those scores are assigned. Lots of ways to earn points, and lots of ways to lose them. Now go forth and earn as many as you can. Good luck!"

    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    What I said at the start of this thread is that I'm quad-confused, especially as a viewer being told that it's "Quad or Bust" this season.
    Who told you that? Ignore them. Was it Scott Hamilton? He does have a tendency to oversimplify, in favor of the jumps. He's not the only one. Most TV commentary is essentially designed as Figure Skating for Dummies. If you want to be more than a dummy, more than a casual viewer, then don't rely on TV commentary to learn about the sport -- it's designed to be inadequate. You'll learn more on FSU, or at a real-live rink.

    IJS is definitely a work-in-progress, and something that will continue to be argued for some time. As David Kirby discusses in the recent manleywoman podcast, it might be 50 years down the road before the IJS judging system will work effectively. Clearly, many of us won't be around to see it. In the meantime, arguing and debating and making suggestions and trying to understand what is currently in place, and trying to enjoy the things about skating that drew us to it in the first place, are perhaps all we can do.
    All very true.

  4. #44
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    Hi there gkelly... thanks for thinking of me. I can find my way around to the skating rinks in my area. And I do have a sense of what makes quality skating. Also, I know seeing it live and up-close and personal makes quite a difference.

    Thanks for the lecture/ tutorial, but I'd rather listen to Dick, Peggy, or Paul, even Sandra, and/or watch Toller, Paul, Janet, Johnny, Dai, D/W, S/S, MK, Robin, etc., and avoid having my eyes glaze over. How long have you been watching figure skating? You must have a lot of time on your hands, or perhaps figure skating is your life. I'd love to have it as my life, too. OTOH, you can take your IJS/ CoP speak with you on that flying leap.** (even though I wasn't specifically addressing you or intending to offend you with my previous post). I'm certain there are more opinions about figure skating than there are moves on the ice. I agree with some of your opinions, but not all. And you obviously take exception to many of my thoughts and viewpoints.

    Yes, to me it is a mystery as to how the judges are actually viewing "quality skating." IMO, under IJS, they are forced to break down everything and thus are not viewing or judging programs as a whole. And the politics involved in judging affect the scoring, and I don't see that ever changing, at least not presently or in the near future. My sensibilities and ways I perceive and think about the sport are mine, and everyone is welcome to theirs. Sometimes what we all have to share is enlightening and can lead to deeper understanding... other times, I guess not.

    **BTW, I added the final thought to my previous post as a bit of encouragement to Kevin (he probably doesn't come here, but I send out my well wishes anyway, like a Reiki blessing). I was not intending to ruffle feathers of those who can't apparently stand seeing KVDP on the ice. But, what's figure skating without feathers, or ruffled feathers.

    Whether we like it or not, can stand watching or not, everyone who takes to the ice, enjoys it and loves whirling around expressing themselves, or taking baby steps on a journey to something grander, training for high level competition, improving their skills, or just having fun, deserves to not be made fun of or dissed as someone who "can't skate."

    Even Patrick Chan deserves not to be made fun of, much less deified.

    And yes, it was NBC's recent GP broadcast that touted "Quad or Bust" as one of the "keys" this season. Yes, its a figure skating broadcast, I know. One person's key is another person's lock out.

    ETA: Yes, I trust my own sensibilities, and I also enjoy reading what others have to say, and expanding my perceptions, as long as other posters don't go hogwild with the math, deify/ heroify Patrick Chan, or presume they are the final arbiter (I know it can seem that a poster is presuming to be a final arbiter based on individual perception, which may not be a poster's intention). Yes, you'd probably prefer watching an art program than reading what I have to say here.

    ITA re jumps and the art will always be a part of skating. We are definitely going through a transition/ transformation -- the ultimate good or bad outcome we won't know about, but right now it's pretty ff'ing bad in many respects, IMHO. As far as "the best they can do," I do not agree with you on that. There is so much better "they" can do, we can do, everyone can do every day in this world.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 11-02-2011 at 08:56 PM.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    I'm not taking issue at all with Michal Brezina's lead in the sp. The program was very good and familiar to him since it isn't new (even though I don't feel Michal is that musical or polished in his presentation skills -- he is definitely improving and certainly has better overall ss than KVDP). My point re Alissa edging Kostner being similar (to outcome with KVDP and Brez) was only in the sense of both Alissa and Brez having had leads in their sp which helped them maintain their leads overall despite having mistakes in the free (altho' Brez had more mistakes, and a greater lead in the sp than his competitors). I was not making any comparison at all re Alissa and Kostner being two top competitors who are closer in overall ability than KVDP and Brez. That's obvious.

    Anyway, the points are moot at this point, and one of my main questions (re why some skaters training/ competing quads begin to have problems with 3axel) remains unanswered. I guess it's unanswerable.



    I thought this new system was made to help skaters ovecome a deficit of three points or more in the free program. I guess is okay for the german to comeback from a fifth place to win at skate america but not Kostner,right. The sport has become a JOKE.

  6. #46
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by RobinA View Post
    People have been saying "quad or bust" since Urmanov. The only time a quad is necessary is when your competitor is your equal or better and manages to land his.

    The fact is the only top reliable quad-doers have been Plushy and Yags. Post-Yags/Plush, the guy who lands quads all competition long this week is a splatfest the next. Or, he does all his quads and can't do a 3A to save his life. The jump is just too iffy to be a must-have week after week. At this point, a Chan doesn't need a quad unless his nearest competitor is hitting on all cylinders, including a quad, probably two. These days it's rare for ANY skater to hit a program out of the park, real quality blade control is not much in evidence, so having a quad is not going to win you every game. To me, right now Chan is the closest thing to a sure bet we have because he has a semi-reliable quad AND blade control no one currently skating can touch. If he never does another quad he's still going to win his share until someone else steps up. Everybody out there at the top level right now is pretty accident-prone. (That means you, especially, Tak!)


    Yes,not to mention that skaters didn't need a quad in vancouver but they absolutely need one NOW. AMAZING HYPOCRIPSY.

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