Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 46

Thread: Quad or Bust???

  1. #21

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    16,929
    vCash
    1600
    Rep Power
    4720
    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    Exactly- VDP was already judged better than Kozuka so why not Brezina as well?
    VDP WAS judged better than Brezina in the long program. Its just that Brezina had a huge lead in the short. Kozuka also messed up the short, so had no short program lead to hold him up in the long.

  2. #22
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    4,013
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    ^^ Okay, somewhat similar to Alissa edging Carolina by a miniscule margin due to having at least a 3-point margin in the sp. Still, this is way too complicated judging for me, particularly when the competitors are all over the place with their performances.

    Why don't they just have a separate jumping contest, a separate figures contest (yes bring back figures for young athletes to have a choice of competing if they are good in figures), and then award individual medals in the sp, and the lp, with the top six competitors overall competing in a final all-around category to win medals that would carry the major clout? Of course, this probably will never happen, although the team concept appears to be in the works.

  3. #23
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    4,282
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Shouldn't this thread, again, be in the Kiss and Cry despite its name?

  4. #24

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    16,929
    vCash
    1600
    Rep Power
    4720
    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    ^^ Okay, somewhat similar to Alissa edging Carolina by a miniscule margin due to having at least a 3-point margin in the sp. Still, this is way too complicated judging for me, particularly when the competitors are all over the place with their performances.

    Why don't they just have a separate jumping contest, a separate figures contest (yes bring back figures for young athletes to have a choice of competing if they are good in figures), and then award individual medals in the sp, and the lp, with the top six competitors overall competing in a final all-around category to win medals that would carry the major clout? Of course, this probably will never happen, although the team concept appears to be in the works.

    I'm not sure how you can argue that Kostner vs Alissa compares with Michal vs Kevin. Alissa and Kostner are both top skaters in this sport with their own strengths/weaknesses vs each other.

    In contrast, I can't really think of a single thing KVP does better than Michal at Michal's best. Yes KVP landed the quad and Michal didn't. But Michal's triple axel is so much better it cancels it out. Michal quality wise is pretty much the best jumper in this sport. The jumps he landed correctly at Skate America were of the highest quality. Add in then the fact that Michal has much better performance quality even at his worst (does KVP ever pay attention to the crowd). Michal skates with speed and power, has choregraphy,transitions and Musicality, better footwork...

    If anything the difference between Michal and KVP after the short should have been greater.


    I hate the concept of messy skates winning medals, but this doesn't mean I think people like Timothy Goebel or KVP should be winning championships. Quality of basic skating matters and it matters a lot. When you have two skaters who are both quality skaters with good basics, lets say Patrick Chan vs Nobunari Oda. I'm willing to say even though Chan's basics are better, okay give it to Oda if Chan's falling over the place.

    But if you get a skater whose basic skating quality is poor, they deserve to have a huge PCS disadvantage-every time.

    Once again Michal was terrible in the free, and can live with KVP winning that portion. But to cry foul over Michal's short program lead is ridiculous. There was a gigantic difference between the two in the short.

  5. #25
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    12,250
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    In contrast, I can't really think of a single thing KVP does better than Michal at Michal's best. Yes KVP landed the quad and Michal didn't. But Michal's triple axel is so much better it cancels it out. Michal quality wise is pretty much the best jumper in this sport.
    Plus, Michal can land two different quads in a program (2011 Worlds LP), something KVDP never did.

  6. #26
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    4,013
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I'm not taking issue at all with Michal Brezina's lead in the sp. The program was very good and familiar to him since it isn't new (even though I don't feel Michal is that musical or polished in his presentation skills -- he is definitely improving and certainly has better overall ss than KVDP). My point re Alissa edging Kostner being similar (to outcome with KVDP and Brez) was only in the sense of both Alissa and Brez having had leads in their sp which helped them maintain their leads overall despite having mistakes in the free (altho' Brez had more mistakes, and a greater lead in the sp than his competitors). I was not making any comparison at all re Alissa and Kostner being two top competitors who are closer in overall ability than KVDP and Brez. That's obvious.

    Anyway, the points are moot at this point, and one of my main questions (re why some skaters training/ competing quads begin to have problems with 3axel) remains unanswered. I guess it's unanswerable.

  7. #27
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    12,250
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Anyway, the points are moot at this point, and one of my main questions (re why some skaters training/ competing quads begin to have problems with 3axel) remains unanswered. I guess it's unanswerable.
    I didn't really see your question in your original post.
    Anyway, I think it's about jumping technique. Axel and other jumps techniques are very, very different. I don't do quads, nor 3Axels, but for the 3axel, you don't start the rotation immediately (or it's a roller skating technique, ala Tara Lipinski), although for quads, you must start it as soon as possible.
    I don't know if I'm clear, but in my mind, it's very clear !

  8. #28
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    4,013
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Thanks for your answer, briancoogaert. It must be an individual problem based on a number of factors, i.e., difference in technique; the mental and physical energy required to put a quad in a program; and then maybe one's timing on 3axel entry is off, maybe due to an endurance issue. I wonder what the affected skaters think goes wrong?

    Also, my initial question, re thread title: If one of the keys to successful competition this season are "Quad or Bust," why didn't not performing the quad in either program hurt Brezina? I guess one answer is the overall competition was crappy to begin with and he skated better in the sp without the quad (lucky in his skate order, because he and his coaches determined he didn't need the quad). If the quad is so important tho' Brez definitely should have threw in at least one in the free program, which it seems might have helped Brez' mental focus and decreased his unfocused mistakes.

  9. #29

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Age
    47
    Posts
    17,726
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    15381
    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Also, my initial question, re thread title: If one of the keys to successful competition this season are "Quad or Bust," why didn't not performing the quad in either program hurt Brezina? I guess one answer is the overall competition was crappy to begin with and he skated better in the sp without the quad (lucky in his skate order, because he and his coaches determined he didn't need the quad). If the quad is so important tho' Brez definitely should have threw in at least one in the free program, which it seems might have helped Brez' mental focus and decreased his unfocused mistakes.
    In short he is a better overall skater than KVDP. And I thought his SP was fantastic. I think people still have a hard time understanding that a program is not the sum of one jump but it has to be a balance of everything. That is what was being rewarded.

    It might be a different story at a different event, but at SA that was the way it panned out.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  10. #30
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    4,013
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I don't have a problem with your reasoning Aussie Willy (the argument re KVDP and Brez is exhausted and exhausting. Brez is a better overall skater and jumper than KVDP, sure, but KVDP performed closer to his level of ability than Brezina did in the free program. Yeah and I know that doesn't mean KVDP should win. Still, a very sloppy win for Brez that would also be confusing for casual viewers).

    IN any case, I am not a proponent of the quad. IMO, the results of Skate America would seem to indicate that "Quad or Bust" is not necessarily one of the keys to winning (at least not this early in the season; at least not at SA where skaters were rusty and made many mistakes, and the skater who performed the best in the sp even w/o a quad ended up winning largely because of his lead in the sp). To me, the situation also indicates that as usual IJS is inconsistent, complicated and constantly in need of fixes, often based on how the wind blows from season to season.

  11. #31

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Age
    47
    Posts
    17,726
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    15381
    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    To me, the situation also indicates that as usual IJS is inconsistent, complicated and constantly in need of fixes, often based on how the wind blows from season to season.
    Of course it is complicated. Skating itself is an incredibly technical sport and it is very easy to break everything down to the endth degree. But because it is so technical I think it is a necessary evil is to have a system to match.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  12. #32

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    16,929
    vCash
    1600
    Rep Power
    4720
    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    I don't have a problem with your reasoning Aussie Willy (the argument re KVDP and Brez is exhausted and exhausting. Brez is a better overall skater and jumper than KVDP, sure, but KVDP performed closer to his level of ability than Brezina did in the free program. Yeah and I know that doesn't mean KVDP should win. Still, a very sloppy win for Brez that would also be confusing for casual viewers).

    IN any case, I am not a proponent of the quad. IMO, the results of Skate America would seem to indicate that "Quad or Bust" is not necessarily one of the keys to winning (at least not this early in the season; at least not at SA where skaters were rusty and made many mistakes, and the skater who performed the best in the sp even w/o a quad ended up winning largely because of his lead in the sp). To me, the situation also indicates that as usual IJS is inconsistent, complicated and constantly in need of fixes, often based on how the wind blows from season to season.
    But why shouldn't leads in the short be a valid reason to win? Nobody screams because in basketball, someone won because one team had a 30 point lead from the 3rd quarter and the team behind them brought it to 2/3 points but no dice...

    Brezina skated terribly for Brezina. But he still landed 6 triples in that program including 2 gorgeous triple axels. He skated that long program pretty well until the end where he lost steam.

    I absolutely do think IJS needs to take into account messy skates etc, but its not like KVP was perfect himself (and no was there 4 falls from Michal either)

    It would be one thing if someone like Dornbush had skated well throughout and the judges didn't give it to him IMO. But that's not the case.

    My issue with Chan for example is not when he's winning over the KVPs with multiple mistakes but when he's getting placed over extremely good skaters with all of those mistakes.

  13. #33
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    4,013
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Who said tho' that leads in the short aren't a valid reason to win? It's simply a fact that their sp leads are largely the reason Brez won, and one of the reasons Alissa was able to edge Carolina for the gold. Perhaps another reason to rethink and down the road maybe award separate medals for the sp and the fp.

    What I said at the start of this thread is that I'm quad-confused, especially as a viewer being told that it's "Quad or Bust" this season. Casual viewers may also have been confused by the fact the winner did not land the so-important quad (albeit that those new to fs have a hard time figuring out the difference between jumps and how many rotations were in a jump anyways).

    In addition to IJS being as you say Aussie Willy, a "necessary evil," there is a lot of inconsistency in the scoring between judges, not to mention the ever-present political aspect of the sport when it comes to judging. I for one do not accept IJS as a "necessary evil" simply because the sport is so "technical" and "complicated." ISU was between a rock and a hard place after 2002 scandal and IOC demands to resolve the scandal by fixing --no pun intended, I think -- their judging system. The heat from the IOC I believe is the major reason why the ISU forced an imperfect new scoring system into place and have been scrambling ever since to make it better. The other major reason was to protect the judges. The skaters and the integrity of the sport as a whole, in my estimation, were afterthoughts in the way the ISU initially constructed and forced IJS/ CoP into place.

    What got short shrift, what went missing in the "breakdown" was the concept of the whole, and the importance of understanding that the artistic side is equally as worthy and integral to the sport as the technical side. The promotion and tagline for instituting CoP, was that 'now the artistic elements will be significantly rewarded,' which turns out to have been false, altho' it was a convenient selling point for CoP. As a matter of fact, it is hard to judge artistry and presentation at all, much less by codification and "breaking elements down." Programs need to be viewed as a whole. Yes, we are talking about subjectivity and a complicated sport. Such complications were not effectively taken into account with IJS. Therefore, the seasonal scrambling. And meanwhile, PCS are just another way to manipulate marks for the overall placements.

    IJS is definitely a work-in-progress, and something that will continue to be argued for some time. As David Kirby discusses in the recent manleywoman podcast, it might be 50 years down the road before the IJS judging system will work effectively. Clearly, many of us won't be around to see it. In the meantime, arguing and debating and making suggestions and trying to understand what is currently in place, and trying to enjoy the things about skating that drew us to it in the first place, are perhaps all we can do.

  14. #34
    Briber of judges
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    near St Louis
    Posts
    15,857
    vCash
    2574
    Rep Power
    14593
    Quote Originally Posted by SmallFairy View Post
    It's Kevin's overall quality that bothers me the most. His jumps are very good, but he's SO STIFF, both his back and his legs reminds me of solid timber, he doesn't bend his knees enough, he keeps waving his arms, but his edges are short and...stiff. He has no flow in his steps and his spins are so slow they are painful to watch. Stiff. Stiff!
    Is this really surprising considering all the injuries and surgeries he has had?

    Earlier in his career VDP did skate with more speed than he does now, but he's been on the eligible scene for quite a long while now, and it's kind of sad that he has not developed his skating skills more in all this time. That is what frustrates me most about his skating.

    Based on the technical content, he did deserve to win the Free Skate at Skate America. But overall, I think the final results were correct.

    I do have to kind of at whomever posted VDP "can't skate," though. I only wish I could skate that poorly.
    I meant to take the high road.... but I missed the exit.

  15. #35
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    4,013
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    ^^

    Me, I wanna jump like Midori Ito and skate like Janet Lynn.

  16. #36
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Phila., PA
    Posts
    3,579
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    ^^

    Me, I wanna jump like Midori Ito and skate like Janet Lynn.

  17. #37
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    12,250
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by peibeck View Post
    I do have to kind of at whomever posted VDP "can't skate," though. I only wish I could skate that poorly.
    LOL, that's why I respect every elite skater, since they are all better than me.
    And that's weird, but, when I'm on the ice with a good skater, that's really really impressive. But on TV, those skaters can look slow and laborious.

    Anyway, KVDP is an elite skater, and for an elite skater, he is a very good jumper, but a weak overall skater.

  18. #38
    Briber of judges
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    near St Louis
    Posts
    15,857
    vCash
    2574
    Rep Power
    14593
    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Anyway, KVDP is an elite skater, and for an elite skater, he is a very good jumper, but a weak overall skater.
    I don't really disagree with this. He might make a good jumping coach once he retires.
    I meant to take the high road.... but I missed the exit.

  19. #39
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2,531
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Is amazing to hear how the quad is absolutely necessary NOW to win a comp but not at last year's Olys. lol! No wonder the sport is in such DECLINE.

  20. #40

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Age
    38
    Posts
    17,210
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    It's hardly a new phenomenon. How many times have we heard "The lady who wins this or that event will have to have a 3/3" and then seen it won by someone with only 3/2's?
    Charter member of the "We Always Believed in Ashley" Club and the "We Believe in Ricky" Club

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •