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Thread: Quad or Bust???

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    Quad or Bust???

    Well ... I guess if you are capable of doing the quad, but have a strategy of holding back on it and are loved by the judges b/c you are a very good jumper and improving on artistry, then you can win all the marbles (at least on the GP circuit).

    I'm quadconfused

    Oh well. Kevin VP, you : Good grief, and KVP was never really a favorite of mine. Hope KVP continues to give it his all and wins GOLD at Europeans. Please... show KVP some love skate gods!

    The sexy-voiced one has time to improve and earn his wins (I do love his programs, but the free is still a work-in-progress -- he needs to do so much better with the choreo and building with the music). Oh well, Chan, the Brez, and the Gach officially loved by judges and can do little wrong. Will the Brez ditch his coaches? Who are those guys anyway?

    What-up with Ricky? Dynomite sp (judges didn't show him love). RD can land quad in competition too, but can someone please tell me why some skaters proceed to lose their triple axel after training and competing the quad???

    Looks like the ISU still doesn't know what to do re judging quads or lack thereof, or failed attempts, or no attempts, vs excellent skating skills, vs so-so ss, and excellent jumping ability. FS, I wish I could quit ya...

    BTW, if someone (Sandra, Terry, Scott) is looking for "Silky Skating," why not send out an SOS to the unmentionable one?
    Last edited by aftershocks; 10-23-2011 at 01:13 AM.

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    If Joubert had performed lik VDP he would have won here. VDP PCS is so low. Kozuka was not on at all. Skating last was a big benefit to Brezina but almost wasn't. He almost lost with a huge PCS advantage.

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    Not intending to rehash the comp here! I'm bemoaning the sad state of FS. Puhleeze someone, help... OGM Evan, you missed a great opportunity apparently, but then again, do you really want to come back to this antiquated, confusing state of affairs? A somewhat jump shaky but soulful Kozuka .27 behind the solid, quad-confident KVP. Then how please in the world did Mr. Sexy-Voice (quite handsome too) with that way off-the-mark free program and no quad in either program (*and I sure don't love the quad, but I thought it was so d**n important these days) still end up in front of KVP??? Did the Brez serenade the judges backstage before the event?

    Who were the judges ... and again, who are those guys in the kiss 'n cry with the Brez?

    One thing was clear ... the stands were fairly empty. Would have been full in Japan, Korea, Russia, China, even Canada. Belly-up, U.S. Figure Skating. Get with it, please someone ...

    Okay ce, as you say IJS judging. But, it just doesn't work -- doesn't make sense to anyone, much less the casual viewer -- and not even the winning skater. Where's the icon for tearing my hair out? I know, "take a chill pill, aftershocks."
    Last edited by aftershocks; 10-23-2011 at 01:36 AM.

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    Maybe the fact that Kevin VanderPerren has the PCS of a floating turd has something to do with Kozuka being so close behind, as well as Brezina being ahead. Not that the minds of some posters here are capable of understanding the difference in quality of skating between some skaters. Obviously.
    I am free of all prejudices. I hate everyone equally.~W. C. Fields

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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    If Joubert had performed lik VDP he would have won here. VDP PCS is so low. Kozuka was not on at all. Skating last was a big benefit to Brezina but almost wasn't. He almost lost with a huge PCS advantage.
    Joubert is a much better skater than VDP. Brian in his prime skated with power and speed. And Brian's a better spinner too...

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    Okay sure, Kasey, blame it on KVDP lack of PCS. He gets no love, even when it's so obvious how hard he's been trying. I for one, do see in Kevin, some inspired skating here and a bit of improvement. That doesn't mean I'm a big fan of KVDP skating or can't tell the difference as you say "in quality of skating between some skaters." What does "quality of skating" mean to the judges is the real mystery. Also, its problematical trying to decipher what IJS changes actually mean this season. I prefer to trust my own eyes and sensibilities in any case. Guess the judges wanted to give KVDP credit for quad and solid skating and staying on his feet, and felt Kosuka made too many mistakes that his superior ss could not surmount. That still does not account for why the Brez prevailed (except for how much judges love him) without a quad in either program and so many misses in the fp. Also, does not account for Ricky being dissed in the sp.

    And still, can anyone explain why some skaters begin to lose their 3axels after training and competing the quad?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Joubert is a much better skater than VDP. Brian in his prime skated with power and speed. And Brian's a better spinner too...
    I agree that Joubert is better than VDP. I think unlike VDP, Joubert could have gotten the PCS in the SP to win this event. What made me think of Joubert is that he has beaten Brezina even when he was cleaner unlike VDP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    I agree that Joubert is better than VDP. I think unlike VDP, Joubert could have gotten the PCS in the SP to win this event. What made me think of Joubert is that he has beaten Brezina even when he was cleaner unlike VDP.
    Joubert and VDP both jump quads, and tend to have empty programs, but thats where the similarity ends. Brian has charisma and in his prime skated with power and speed. In contrast VDP is not really a performer whatsover and skates very slowly. Its an insult to Joubert to compare the two.

    Its almost like comparing Ando to Flatt (although Jouberts a better performer than Ando). Ando may be a bit boring but the quality of her jumps are better and she skates with power and speed. Flatt doesn't (although yes VDP is a better jumper than Flatt.)

    Look it was close between Brezina and VDP. But this isn't Patrick Chan beating Nobunari Oda with four falls. My issue with Chan coming out there is while Chan's the bette skater, Oda himself is no sloach in the skating skills department.

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    Rep Power: 0 Okay sure, Kasey, blame it on KVDP lack of PCS. He gets no love, even when it's so obvious how hard he's been trying. I for one, do see in Kevin, some inspired skating here and a bit of improvement. That doesn't mean I'm a big fan of KVDP skating or can't tell the difference as you say "in quality of skating between some skaters." What does "quality of skating" mean to the judges is the real mystery. Also, its problematical trying to decipher what IJS changes actually mean this season. I prefer to trust my own eyes and sensibilities in any case. Guess the judges wanted to give KVDP credit for quad and solid skating and staying on his feet, and felt Kosuka made too many mistakes that his superior ss could not surmount. That still does not account for why the Brez prevailed (except for how much judges love him) without a quad in either program and so many misses in the fp. Also, does not account for Ricky being dissed in the sp.

    And still, can anyone explain why some skaters begin to lose their 3axels after training and competing the quad?
    And as for the comparing Kozuka and Brezina situation. Brezina came on top due the the short program. Where he absolutely deserved his big lead. I'd also point out that while Kevin had the quad, he didn't have a clean triple axel if I recall, and didn't Brezina have two. In my book two high quality triple axels cancel out one quad with no triple axel. Kevin deserved to win the free and I guess it can go either way but its not like he didn't have his own issues.

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    I like the Brez. He's showing some improvement in artistry ... but ugh, his PCS close to Kozuka's? The Brez' choreo in fp is lacking, and he did not demonstrate a great deal of musicality to some great music for skating (see Derrick Delmore's Untouchables program -- much more exciting and interpretive of the music, even if Delmore was not always consistent on his jumps). I think judges are blinded by Brez' jumping ability, but he missed the mark on those in his fp. And, what about all the "quad or bust" claims for this season, when obviously skaters favored by judges can fall on quads or leave them out and still win. (It was a nice and familiar sp for the Brez, but again, he should not be rated equal, close to or better than Kozuka on PCS -- and he left out the quad in sp too! Is the quad important or not? Or is it only skaters not known to have them who must prove they can land them, and those with the rep can slide by on their rep).

    Guess I'll have to ask Ricky or Lambiel, what is it that causes them to lose their 3axels after training and competing quads.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 10-23-2011 at 07:03 AM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Okay sure, Kasey, blame it on KVDP lack of PCS. He gets no love, even when it's so obvious how hard he's been trying
    You don't get points just for trying hard, because it's an elite sport and everyone is trying really, really hard. It's a skating competition, and KVDP can't skate. I have literally seen children on the juvenile and intermediate level with better skating skills. The current US and Canadian novice champions could do KVDP's programs with their eyes closed, on their bad sides, and still probably get twice his speed. Jumps should never be valued for their own sake when the skating skills are waaaaay below par, and KVDP simply doesn't have the skills of a senior man. Just like being able to do fouettes doesn't make you a ballerina, and being able to doing a back flip doesn't make you a gymnast. KVDP has one trick. That he's been held up as much as he has in the past is frankly an embarrassment to the sport. We're supposed to believe the judges that KVDP has skating skills that are better than Amodio, seriously? It's a joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doubleflutz View Post
    You don't get points just for trying hard, because it's an elite sport and everyone is trying really, really hard. It's a skating competition, and KVDP can't skate. I have literally seen children on the juvenile and intermediate level with better skating skills. The current US and Canadian novice champions could do KVDP's programs with their eyes closed, on their bad sides, and still probably get twice his speed. Jumps should never be valued for their own sake when the skating skills are waaaaay below par, and KVDP simply doesn't have the skills of a senior man.
    Here here!

    The notion that KVDP should be a gold medalist based on one element when the rest of his PCS are sadly lacking is really quite laughable.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    He can't be a gold medalists even when everyone stinks? He doubled a jump but that was his worst error. But I can see some think is biggest error was lack of skating ability! Skating with mediocre jumps is better than non-skating with jumps. Still think it might have been better if VDP won. He can skate-he's not as bad as some of these posts make him out to be. Obviously a clean Brezina or anyone really who has the jumps and everything should always beat VDP but here I think the question is legitimate!

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    Quote Originally Posted by doubleflutz View Post
    You don't get points just for trying hard, because it's an elite sport and everyone is trying really, really hard. It's a skating competition, and KVDP can't skate.
    LOL, I agree, I'm training really hard at every practice, but I'm not Olympic champion ! And don't deserve it, anyway !

    It's just a pitty that the best skaters of the competition were not able to win the Free Skate over KVDP.

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    Did KVP win the free skate ? I like KVP and happy that he won a medal, but one quad does not a program make. His overall skating skills haven't improved since 2003. Still, not bad for an "old" dude .

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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    Did KVP win the free skate ? I like KVP and happy that he won a medal, but one quad does not a program make. His overall skating skills haven't improved since 2003. Still, not bad for an "old" dude .
    Yes he did! I too was happily surprised. I hope he could get to the top in Euro champs

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    It's Kevin's overall quality that bothers me the most. His jumps are very good, but he's SO STIFF, both his back and his legs reminds me of solid timber, he doesn't bend his knees enough, he keeps waving his arms, but his edges are short and...stiff. He has no flow in his steps and his spins are so slow they are painful to watch. Stiff. Stiff!

    I'm not saying Kozuka or Brezina left a great overall impression yesterday, but they have a complete package of good quality skating in all elements, not just jumps, and their basic is gorgeous. It's not like I wanna roll around in pain when I watch them...hence KVDP!

    KVDP is the kind of skater I want to mould and bend and shake like jelly to make him loosen up.... his steps and moves seems so forced. And it's reaaaaaally bothering me!

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    The thing about it is, when I saw KVDP go out in the warm-up, I was rolling my eyes and saying to myself, "Why isn't he retired already? I thought he said he was retiring." I too am guilty of not liking KVDP's skating, but I must say he is not a bad person and should be respected not for just trying, but for succeeding. He obviously wanted to come back because he enjoys skating, despite lacking exquisite skills in many areas. However, if the judges agreed with all you who feel KVDP "can't skate," and is no better than a juvenile, intermediate or novice skater, then he should have come in last no matter what he did. Clearly, Ricky, Murakami, and even Razzano have better overall skating skills than KVDP. Right, knowledgeable about quality fans? Ha, ha, the judges probably began to experience heart palpitations halfway through the Brez' sloppy, "safe" skate. "KVDP is in first, and the Brez is falling apart ... how much leeway do we have in the marks to avoid the 'mockery' of awarding KVDP the gold??"

    Under the circumstances of this event, KVDP deserved to win, or else IJS needs to go back to the drawing board, as usual, because the judging system is still such a huge work-in-progress. If KVDP didn't deserve to win, then why was Kozuka placed behind him? If Kozuka was placed behind KVDP, then Brezina deserved to be behind KDVP as well. Kozuka has way better artistry than both, despite having problems with his jumps. Apparently, jumps will always trump, and often high PCS are awarded to skaters with great jumping ability like Brez, who in fact are lacking in presentation and artistry. While he is not as stiff as KVDP, Brez is still in need of great improvement in choreo, musicality, and overall presentation. The Brez has good programs this season, and maybe he needs new coaches as well, in order to fully realize his potential.

    Looking at what went down in the competition, at least Kevin completed difficult elements, stayed on his feet, and gave us his version of inspired skating (with a nod to Yags). Truly that is nothing to spit at, under the circumstances of this event. IJS judging is hoist by its own petard. This men's event is a great example of that. If everyone skated as well as they could skate, as the likeable and never-say-die Kevin VDP did, then obviously the judges would have fared better -- their job would have been made easier.

    When nearly everyone falls apart on the ice, the holes in the judging system become all the more gaping and I say men, go out there and overcome your limitations. If the skating skills and PCS-challenged KVDP can cop silver and win the fp (I don't care how early in the season it is), think what all you 'more talented' skaters should be able to do ... with or without favor from the judges. Can things get any worse before they get better? From now on, KVDP, I'm a fan!

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    Exactly- VDP was already judged better than Kozuka so why not Brezina as well?

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    Why was KVDP overscored? Great question. It's hard to knock a relatively clean skate even if everything outside of a single aspect is quite lacking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Joubert and VDP both jump quads, and tend to have empty programs, but thats where the similarity ends. Brian has charisma and in his prime skated with power and speed. In contrast VDP is not really a performer whatsover and skates very slowly. Its an insult to Joubert to compare the two.
    I agree, and I'm not really a big fan of Joubert. In fact, VDP has even emptier programs between the jumps than Joubert.

    That said, I admire VDP for sticking with skating and doing what he does at his age. I just wish he hadn't beaten my favorite, Kozuka, whose skating I much prefer to either Joubert or VDP, even when Kozuka is missing his big jumps as he was at SA.

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