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  1. #961
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    Quote Originally Posted by bunhead View Post
    Would you mind elaborating, Pratfall? Not everyone has access to whatever you're seeing.
    Funny, you don't complain when W/P benefit from home-biased at Skate Canada ?.
    D/W at Skate America.
    It happens.
    It always gone on.
    Besides I saw the breakdown of the scores & thought it was fair.
    C/B were the one's hard done by.

  2. #962

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    I was so mad yesterday,that I couldn't even comment on W/P's performance. I'm not saying that W/P were perfect,but the gap between their and B/S's score is ridiculous.

    I checked and both, Sylwia NOWAK-TREBACKA and Alla SHEKHOVTSEVA, were also on the technical panel during Euros 2012 where B/S beat surprisingly P/B in the SD.
    I knew W/P would have no chance with these two on the panel.

  3. #963

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pratfall View Post
    Oh, I posted that comment right after the SD and ran off to kick something. I don't want to transgress by getting into discussion here but that they were marked too low was only half the problem ..others were marked too high as well..

    Katalin Alpern is notorious,as far as I know , and has been involved in many controversial competitions over the years.

    If anyone has a link to the British Eurosport coverage , I'd love to see it . They were apparently very puzzled and surprised.

    We'll see what tomorrow brings...
    I saw the vids of both WP and BS, the British Eurosport were surprised by WP's score but after BS skated they said BS deserved the lead. They were commenting on the speed and ice coverage.

  4. #964
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessiebanana View Post
    I wish she would have been less diplomatic (I haven't actually heard her comments), I wish everyone would be less diplomatic. If everyone commenting that had access to a microphone and legitimate knowledge of ice dance, like Tanith, called this kind of behavior out on a regular basis, I think it could make a difference.
    If she did it for this event, she'd have to do it for SA too where she'd be calling out the judges on the ridiculously inflated marks of D/W. The GP events are now simply used to prop up home town favourites - they're no different than nationals now.

  5. #965

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    Quote Originally Posted by blueglass View Post
    If she did it for this event, she'd have to do it for SA too where she'd be calling out the judges on the ridiculously inflated marks of D/W. The GP events are now simply used to prop up home town favourites - they're no different than nationals now.
    188.23 for Skate America vs. 186.65 at NHK--gotta love that hometown 1.58 point inflation. (Not to let the facts get in the way of a good rant.)

  6. #966
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~tapdancer~ View Post
    I saw the vids of both WP and BS, the British Eurosport were surprised by WP's score but after BS skated they said BS deserved the lead. They were commenting on the speed and ice coverage.
    It's not the matter of a lead, ( there were no disasters in either SD and one might expect different panels to have either team slightly ahead of the other ).. it's a matter of by how much and the spread was unbelievable...of course it protected B/S in the FD. And there's no question they needed it.

    Speed shouldn't trump everything else . Only when two teams are otherwise equal , should that be the deciding factor.

    Lovely FD by W/P today.. and on to the GPF..
    Last edited by Pratfall; 11-23-2013 at 05:24 PM.

  7. #967
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~tapdancer~ View Post
    I saw the vids of both WP and BS, the British Eurosport were surprised by WP's score but after BS skated they said BS deserved the lead. They were commenting on the speed and ice coverage.
    They definitely didn't say this at any point. I have the coverage saved on my TV and have rewatched it several times. They did compliment a lot of things about B/S but it seemed like they were looking for things to try to compliment IYSWIM? Today Nicky said he would have the Canadians ahead, although I'm not sure if he was referring to just the FD or the whole comp.

  8. #968
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    Does anyone have link to vid of BES both long and short programmes, please?

  9. #969
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueglass View Post
    If she did it for this event, she'd have to do it for SA too where she'd be calling out the judges on the ridiculously inflated marks of D/W.
    Are you saying that mostly because you think D/W's marks are always inflated?

    If you look at the two protocols, both GOE and PCS are nearly the same at Skate America and NHK, so I don't really see your case here.

    That said, I agree there are two problems with the way the GP events are scored:

    The calling of levels and URs has gotten far too inconsistent from one event to another. Some of that may be politiks, but I suspect a lot of it is just individual variation, kind of like baseball umpires all having their own interpretation of the strike zone. And I suppose there may be some combination of the two - does the host federation have any input in which officials the ISU assigns to their events?

    Either way, there are definitely some callers who seem consistently more stringent than others. IMO, the ISU needs to focus more on continuous retraining to try to keep them all more consistent, and maybe even weed out the ones who are too often off from the majority.

    The second issue I have always seen as problematic is that the six GP host countries get to choose who judges at their events. IMO, this has conflict of interest written all over it.
    Last edited by Susan M; 11-23-2013 at 06:33 PM.

  10. #970

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    Are you saying that mostly because you think D/W's marks are always inflated?

    If you look at the two protocols, both GOE and PCS are nearly the same at Skate America and NHK, so I don't really see your case here.

    That said, I agree there are two problems with the way the GP events are scored:

    The calling of levels and URs has gotten far too inconsistent from one event to another. Some of that may be politiks, but I suspect a lot of it is just individual variation, kind of like baseball umpires all having their own interpretation of the strike zone. And I suppose there may be some combination of the two - does the host federation have any input in which officials the ISU assigns to their events?

    Either way, there are definitely some callers who seem consistently more stringent than others. IMO, the ISU needs to focus more on continuous retraining to try to keep them all more consistent, and maybe even weed out the ones who are too often off from the majority.

    The second issue I have always seen as problematic is that the six GP host countries get to choose who judges at their events. IMO, this has conflict of interest written all over it.
    Is this true? I thought they were picked by a blind draw [although I dont know where I heard that.]

    I dont have that much of a problem with some callers being strict and some being lenient as long as they apply the same standards to everyone - that's why people tell you not to compare scores between competitions. I agree with you - in a perfect world everyone would call the same way - but when people are involved, I doubt you can achieve that standard.

    The heart of the problem for me isnt the level calling - it's the GOE. And Im not just talking about one competition. Many, MANY times you can see badly done elements getting positive GOE - along with all kinds of excuses for why. This is my pet peeve - if anything needs to be re-looked at, it's this.

    Far too many judges are waaaayyy too lenient with their GOEs.

  11. #971
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tak View Post
    Is this true? I thought they were picked by a blind draw [although I don't know where I heard that.]
    There is a draw procedure used for the Olympics and ISU championships (Worlds, Euros, etc) but for the GP series, the hosts get to select the judges, using some mystery process worked out with the ISU.

    From the announcement:

    7.2 ISU Appointed Officials

    The ISU President will appoint all Officials (Referees, Technical Controllers, Technical Specialists, Assistant Technical Specialists, Data & Replay Operators, OAC members) for each individual event and the Final in accordance with the 2012 Regulations.
    The ISU Secretariat will inform the Organizing Committees of the names of the Officials assigned to their events. No changes will be accepted unless confirmed by the ISU Secretariat.

    7.3 Panel of Judges

    The panel of Judges in each individual event of the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating will consist of 9 Judges of different ISU Members in each discipline if possible, but not less than 7 Judges. Only International or ISU Judges are eligible to serve in the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating events. Each Judge may participate in no more than two ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating events plus the ISU Grand Prix of Skating Final. The Organizing ISU Members will invite the Judges based on a procedure agreed with the ISU.


    I have never understood why all the non-GP countries are OK with this.

    Many, MANY times you can see badly done elements getting positive GOE - along with all kinds of excuses for why.
    I agree. One of the changes I would like to see made is to eliminate the good-bad offsetting BS. If an element has an error, the judges should be required to give GOE no greater than zero. The ISU does now specify certain kinds of errors that require the GOE to be in the minus, but for others it just specifies an amount of deduction, which can be offset if the element included qualities that would have earned a plus. It just seems wacky that we ever see an element with GOE ranging from -2 to +2.
    Last edited by Susan M; 11-24-2013 at 12:37 AM.

  12. #972
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    Quote Originally Posted by CassAgain View Post
    188.23 for Skate America vs. 186.65 at NHK--gotta love that hometown 1.58 point inflation. (Not to let the facts get in the way of a good rant.)
    They skated better at NHK.

  13. #973
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueglass View Post
    They skated better at NHK.
    They actually received lower levels on twizzles they messed up and lower levels for the midline where Charlie messed up an edge. They did receive lower levels on their FS, but so did everyone else. The tech caller was universally harder at NHK than SA. C/L also received level 4s on their FS sequences at SA. They skated their FD better and received a higher score for that than SA. Did you actually watch their NHK performance?

    They performed their SD better, IMO, but they didn't skate it better technically.

  14. #974
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    I don't understand why we are discussing pro's and cons of D/W marks in this thread. Would just like to say I enjoyed Kaitlyn and Andrews performances of both SD and FD. I find I like them better than B/S, but realize that's just my preference.

  15. #975
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    Their tango is my favorite FD in this season. Amazing!

  16. #976
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    Quote Originally Posted by girlscouse62 View Post
    I don't understand why we are discussing pro's and cons of D/W marks in this thread. Would just like to say I enjoyed Kaitlyn and Andrews performances of both SD and FD. I find I like them better than B/S, but realize that's just my preference.

    Ditto to the last sentence. Had I rep points, I award you onw.

  17. #977
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    Finally saw their FD and they skated it so well. Twizzles aside, the performance just sucks you in. It's unfortunate their second GP had to be Rostelecom.

    I think it's one of my favorite tango FDs.

  18. #978
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    On a lighter note, though my feelings are sort of tepid regarding the woman commentator on Eurosport , I got such a giggle out of her succumbing to Poje Power...freely adimitting that she couldn't take her eyes off him, and going on at length about it ... ( he does make a very fine tango man )
    It fell to Nicky ( was it Nicky?) to try cover by offering up a few inanities, such as, well, when you can only watch the man , you know it's working ..(um...what, exactly , is working?) ..before adding that he saw them as a couple , or something like that.

  19. #979
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pratfall View Post
    On a lighter note, though my feelings are sort of tepid regarding the woman commentator on Eurosport , I got such a giggle out of her succumbing to Poje Power...freely adimitting that she couldn't take her eyes off him, and going on at length about it ... ( he does make a very fine tango man )
    It fell to Nicky ( was it Nicky?) to try cover by offering up a few inanities, such as, well, when you can only watch the man , you know it's working ..(um...what, exactly , is working?) ..before adding that he saw them as a couple , or something like that.
    The woman on Eurosport is former British Champion Joanne Conway. Don't get me started on her. She is more bitchy than Robin Cousins. When she does not like a skater she goes for the kill.
    She also does not even remember the names of certain skaters. Nicky sounds a bit annoyed with her.
    Back to COR. I thought W/P should have won the Gold. B/S were slightly better for me on the SD but W/P were way better on the free. I thought B/S should have been behind C/B in the free.
    Also, what were B/S wearing ?!. Just awful.

  20. #980
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    Here's their Gala performance courtesy of Mao 88 over at GS. ( and some very nice comments from Nicky )

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW8-xGxk_tw

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