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  1. #121
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    Wow! I never thought I'd hear oh-so-diplomatic Tanith Belbin come right out and say the judges were wrong and should have scored WP higher than PB. Which I totally agree with.
    Last edited by bluestocking; 12-11-2011 at 11:57 PM.

  2. #122
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    Interesting looking at the report cards. I really think the PCS marks were off. I can see that maybe Skating Skill would go to P/B, and some more complex Linking footwork, but on Performance, Choreography and Interpretation the nod has to to go to W/P. Once again, as always, I think W/P wuz robbed of a medal.

    I think that Kaitlyn needs a new dress for the SD. Something of all one colour, maybe black or even strong pink, that emphasizes her long legs and body. Sexy, fitted, and shows her off. It's hard to see her lines and positions with so much going on in the costume. Then maybe people will see what they are doing and give them the marks.

    For the FD, I think they need to just add more difficult linking footwork, and continue to work on their unison, and toe point (Kaitlyn). I wouldn't want them to add too much more, since they will run the risk of being over done (like the Russian team looked over done), but just a little bit more difficulty to up that PCS mark.

    It's going to be hard for them to win Bronze in France, but it is not beyond possible.

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    I thought their freedance was FANTASTIC! I was so drawn in from start to finish!

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    I love them.
    I do not have enough technical proficiency to discuss whether they were undermarked vs P/B ot not; I like both teams. But it's undeniable they are improving with every competition, and are a deeply emotional, genuine team. Last year being 5th at Worlds was a surprise; now being fourth at GPF feels right at the very least, and it seems that they are capable of more. I wish them the best and hope they get to the very top!!!
    Last edited by dinakt; 12-12-2011 at 05:45 AM.
    improving my ballad- like lines

  5. #125

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    W&P were incredible to me. When I first saw their FD in practice and competition at Skate Canada, I wasn't so sure about it. But it's really grown on me over the GP season and now it's my favourite FD.

    I think W&P have the best package of SD/FD of all the teams this season. Congrats to Camerlengo, Krylova and Bourne on the choreo!

  6. #126
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    Today was also the first time I loved that FD and it's because they put 100% into it, you could really feel their commitment to it and it just drew me in. Great package this season with both programs. A bit of a shame as I think they will need mistakes in both programs from P&B to gain on them.
    Tessa and Scott: Thank you

  7. #127
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    Natalie & Fabian are my favourite couple, I've been following them since 2004 (the ups & downs).
    I thought they should have been 2nd in the short dance but in the free Weaver & Poje were better.
    But then I thought they should have won the NHK Trophy.
    Their Free Dance this season is one of my faves in recent years.
    Such passion & emotion.
    I thought that Krylova looked a little let down in the kiss & cry when Natalie & Fabian got the bronze, maybe she thought it was a little harsh on Weaver & Poje.
    I'm kinda stuck with this one as my heart said Natalie & Fabian but my head said Weaver & Poje.
    They should be proud of themselves though.

  8. #128

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    My heart was torn in two between the two teams who battled for bronze. I wanted to see W/P on the podium but felt sooo bad for the French from other comps ... it was hard either way.
    Crazy about sports!

  9. #129
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    Amazing final for these two. I don't think they have ever skated this well, ever. I'm so so happy for them.

    I can't say I agree with them finishing behind the French here, especially in the FD. Their technical levels were really good, and their performance quality is out of this world. A lot of the commentators agreed, it seems. Tanith Belbin, both sets of Canadian commentators and the British commentators all thought P/B shouldn't have beaten W/P in the FD. The upside to this is that W/P were at least within striking distance of the French points wise, which means that they have a legitemate shot at the world bronze medal. Honestly, if someone had said that this time last year, I would have laughed. These two have improved so much so fast that its incredible. Wishing them an amazing Worlds.

    On a side note, I was watching the Italian version of this FD on Youtube, and the female commentator said she had a confession to make, and that she thought Andrew was "altissimo e bellissimo," which means tall and beautiful/handsom. I laughed for a full minute after that, especially when her and the other female commentator started squealing and laughing lol.

  10. #130

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    W&P are going gangbuster's for the most "wuz robbed" award two seasons running...

    Well the good news is, they are now beating the cutie pie Shibs. The bad news is, so are the French...

    What's next? W&P must now take down the only Euro team left, that has any shot at all of preventing complete North American podium dominance of the Ice dance discipline.

    Stop, you say, not true you say!

    What about the adorable Italians, or the angsty Russians, surely they both have enough stuff left in tank, to beat the hot, hot, hot, W&P, or the sweet as sugar Shibs?

    I would have answered maybe, before GPF. However, the GPF result has shown us where the judges are leaning. The french are still ahead by a nose based on political will, (always shown by PCS) but they must stay upright to fend off the rising CDN #2, and USA # 2 who will both be ready to swoop in for shot at the bronze should P&B fall from grace the way they did in 2010. While there is a defined pecking order; Gold and Silver will be tween V&M and D&W, however the bronze, is still anyone's to grab with P&B the team most clearly favored.

    Italy and Russia have to now hope that both the #2 NA teams have unexpected disasters that will take them out of contention. Odds are 1 possibly 2 of the 5 teams slotted for bronze may go down during the final battle at worlds, but all 3 teams P&B, W&P, Shibs, all going down is pretty unlikely, thus both may have to settle for 6,and 7.

    What W&P can be very proud of, is that they were probably the team being slotted for 6th or 7th, before the GP season began, just fighting to keep previous season's unexpected 5th ranking spot, secure in their sights.

    Previous World medal winners and #1 Euro teams are usually given the green light before considering any upward momentum from NA #2's, or Asia #1's. That is the historical reality of ice dance, yes it's changing to slightly favor NA, based on 2010 Oly results, but perhaps there are still some old eurocentric judging attitudes prevailing on most dance panels, some pre cop judges not willing to keep up with, or change quickly enough to appreciate the actual skating skills being put on display on the ice on the given day and rewarding them the way they should be rewarded, still perhaps protocol judging, afraid of incuring federation wrath.

    So Kudo's to W&P who not only did not drop a rung or 2, but actually secured last years rank, and now after GPF showdown, they have actually moved up a notch! I am very proud of them!

    W&P have 2 strong programs this season, both of which are being told with heat, sizzle or a range of emotion and both charismatically sold very very well, with good solid technique, speed, in each to seal the deal.

    The Shibs still have their fab, solid, technical expertise-- ex., amazing twizzle's, their bronze medal history, to carry them, plus the political will of both a strong fed and awesome coaching team that won't allow this superb young tecnically talented team to fall too far off the podium, always keeping them close enough to those ahead of them, to be able to capitalize on these other teams's failures.

    I say after GPF, on paper it looks like Russians hopes for a top 5 worlds finish are fading as fast as their GP season marks have, from the 163.52 China high, that kept them above Shibs, to the low 157.30 at GPF, that has once again dropped them behind the #2USA team...

    Of course, there may still be some political clout left that may try to keep the Russians above the Italians who earned 154.87 during 2011/12 GP season, but it's fading quickly away, based on the GPF marks that only have the Russians ranked above the Italians, so can they really make top 5 now? IMO, I don't think so, due to over the top costuming; both programs are just way too busy cop whoring for points, to feel authentic; while they are still too sloppy executing the difficulty to sell them properly! Hmmn, not even hair extensions, nor all her besti squats will save them now, so IMO they will likely be a very fortunate 6th, but most likely a bridesmaid 7th depending on how well the technical Shibs and the wonderfully emotive Italians skate. Each of these teams vying for most cute and adorable couple award, leaving the posture poor, angsty, bedazzled, feathered Russians possibly out of the top 6, esp., if the trend set by GPF plays out.

    Of course this scenario is all moot should B&S be beaten at Russian nationals by the yet to appear, player's to be named later - M&K, which given the GPF failure of B&S to deliver on the road to Sochi, is now entirely possible. Nationals followed by Europeans will tell the tale, so one should never count out the always politically savy and powerful Russian fed who always have a back-up big game strategy to call up that somehow changes everything.

    That folks, is likely why no matter how great W&P skate, it won't matter much in terms of marks, as long as the French stay upright, they will be on the world podium, and if not them, then possibly a new Russian #1 -the switch hitter team called up from the minor's! Then if that also fizzles one reverts back to the current GPF lineup where W&P and the Shibs get a shot if the Euro teams falter...I hope I'm wrong, because W&P really impressed me with their GPF final performances.

    I think W&P actually beat P&B in the FD portion, maybe not quite over all given the significant French lead in the SD, but allowing for my untrained eye I will go along with SD results. That said, W&P were definitely the stronger performer's in the FD, and since judges put them ahead in TES, they should have been rewarded for PE in the PCS part too, at least in this specific event...

    Given that they could have still awarded P&B a SB score of the usual bump of 2 pts, say 100.04 - 1.00 for the deduction = 99.04 (even though I felt this FD performance wasn't as strong as what they skated at TEB, I bow to wiser heads.) The judges could have given W&P the nod of breaking 100 in the FD, after all would it have killed them to perhaps award .17 more?

    They beat P&B in TES, so why not give them the .17 in terms of PE (which they clearly did deserve) by awarding them 100.00 for the FD, still leaving them behind P&B overall, but at least acknowledging their very moving and well skated FD performance and their upward momentum, or were they too worried P&B would once again succumb to pressure and fall?

    I don't blame the skater's who have no control over the marks they are given, they can only do their best to deliver what the coaches have taught and do justice to the choreo they were given to interpret. I think I am calling out the CDN judges who are clearly not doing their best job, as most are failing to persuade the other dance judges on the merits of the Cdn dancer's generally, over the GP season, and the merits of W&P specifically esp here at this GPF event where they skated all out.

    While I am at it, I want to say that I felt V&M finally delivered big time in the FD, they gave an awesome and moving performance taking us all to a different time and place, and making it all look extremely smooth, magical, and effortless, being superior both technically and artistically by appearing glued to-gether, always in sync and displaying lovely lines, extensions, also becomming the characters, charming us chemistry wise, all while dancing to the music, etc..

    Unlike W&P Canada's # 1 team may still have a chance to unseat D&W, as it is still within their own power to skate their best, and thus control their fate to some degree, while I understand why they got off to a slower start, given Tessa's surgeries and time away from competition, I do feel it's going to be a more uphill battle now, with D&W flying out of the gate and appearing ever more equal in everyone's mind. With one, never knowing just how healthly Tessa will remain, and since this will be the USA's best, perhaps the only chance to medal, as Russian or Japanese gals are likely to continue to dominate, and given Chan, the Japanese, and up and comming European boys, the Russians and Chinese pairs, you can see where I am going with this... My bet is that Marina and Igor who also happen to coach and thus are paid by more American teams, and now with Vancouver firmly in the rear mirror, team S&Z will likely now support D&W just a tad bit more over V&M, unless Skate Canada revs up their support for Canadian dance teams esp with 2013 London worlds looming large before the Sochi big show. Just my 2 cents...

    Why oh why can't Canada push a bit harder, support our skater's financially, politically just a bit more., esp given the depth of Canadian dance talent? Maybe it's time to centralize or create a new CDN coaching team dance dynasty to rival that of the established coaching partnerships of team S&Z or K&C...

    Isn't Z still a Canadian? With former dance teams like B&K, D&L, W&L now all in the coaching/or choreo end of things, and talented perhaps more established people like Lane, Razguljaevs, Islam, or even Denis, Marcotte, and a host of others I can think of all offering their services here in Canada, then why can't some of them form a working dance alliance too, maybe lure a high level politically savy, Euro coach to work with the CDN dance alliance with the bonus carrot of V&M, etc? So a gal can dream in colour...

  11. #131
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    Just wanted to say congrat to W&P on a wonderful FD. I too was choked up and think their PCS should have been a bit higher. I have never seen Andrew this expressive. It was brilliant of Shae to bring in an acting coach for assistance. I still consider P&B to be the third best team out there right now based on skating skills, but W&P are a solid fourth for me and are certainly closing the gap (and W&P have the better FD choreography). I really felt Kaitlyn and Andrew deserved the bronze last year, as much as I love the Shibs (I felt that W&P definitely had the more complex program), so I didn't see their top 5 placement as a fluke.

    I always thought W&P had so much to offer, but they seemed to struggle in competition. They have really worked so hard on being able to get their levels and their edges and speed are vastly improved over the last couple of seasons. I think they were really smart to compete in 3 events this season, and I am so glad they saw it pay off in Quebec City. I feel like they finally have the confidence now, and they have shown that there is no limit to their potential.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Debrah View Post
    Whole post.
    Excellent points!

    Quote Originally Posted by Debrah View Post
    Isn't Z still a Canadian? With former dance teams like B&K, D&L, W&L now all in the coaching/or choreo end of things, and talented perhaps more established people like Lane, Razguljaevs, Islam, or even Denis, Marcotte, and a host of others I can think of all offering their services here in Canada, then why can't some of them form a working dance alliance too, maybe lure a high level politically savy, Euro coach to work with the CDN dance alliance with the bonus carrot of V&M, etc? So a gal can dream in colour...
    Yes, Z is still a Canadian, but with the number of teams she and S are coaching, they need each other. As you say, they predominantly coach American teams. By now she probably has three citizenships.

    There are good things happening with D/L in Montreal, W/L in Vancouver, L/R in Toronto, not to mention Islam and MacIntosh; of all these L/R are the most successful right now, but Carol Lane has built her school up over many years and I doubt she'd want to yield any control.

    Scott Moir once said that he and Patrice Lauzon had talked on the CSOI tour about their desire for a new dance training centre in Canada. Maybe some day they will join forces. That would be very interesting.

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    Late to the party but I've been unsure about this FD until now that was truly something to watch. I too love P/B but it just wasn't there yesterday. I thought they skated fabulous in TEB and I haven't liked their program really until that day but yesterday I was again thinking 'it's...okay' at best. Of course with Worlds in France there's no chance, barring a disaster, that W/P will win a medal and I just can't wish that for P/B especially after last year. Regardless W/P should feel very proud. They've come so far.

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    Hopefully they will at least win one of the "small medals" at worlds.
    Addicted to FSU

  15. #135
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    I think Weaver/Poje are fantastic, but I also think Pechalat/Bourzat are the better team overall and have the better programmes this season.

    Weaver/Poje will definitely get a great reaction from the crowd in Nice even though they'll be vying with Pechalat/Bourzat for bronze.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    I think Weaver/Poje are fantastic, but I also think Pechalat/Bourzat are the better team overall and have the better programmes this season.

    Weaver/Poje will definitely get a great reaction from the crowd in Nice even though they'll be vying with Pechalat/Bourzat for bronze.
    1. Agreed that W/P are fantastic
    2. Agreed that P/B are better
    3. I'd say that P/B have the better FD, but collectively prefer W/P's two programs
    4. Also agreed, but I won't deny that I'm rooting for the hometown pair to get the medal. The massive improvement in performance quality from W/P will be enough of a reward, imo.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by flowerpower View Post
    Excellent points!

    There are good things happening with D/L in Montreal, W/L in Vancouver, L/R in Toronto, not to mention Islam and MacIntosh; of all these L/R are the most successful right now, but Carol Lane has built her school up over many years and I doubt she'd want to yield any control.

    Scott Moir once said that he and Patrice Lauzon had talked on the CSOI tour about their desire for a new dance training centre in Canada. Maybe some day they will join forces. That would be very interesting.

    I think the concept of working together to build dance in Canada is a FABULOUS idea. Each of these coaches have their own strengths and weaknesses. W/L are very good at the regime of training, and instilling speed and mental toughness. They are missing some depth in their programs, and a focus on quality core technique. D/L tend to put together teams that grow over a longer period of time, and focus more on fundamentals. Their programs have more content and are more mature than W/L. Their teams could use more drive and speed. L/R teams have good showmanship and lots of heart. They put together some very interesting programs over the years. My favourite is the Crone/Poirier SD from a couple of years ago (Charlie Chaplin ish). Technique is passable, but there are some definite posture issues, and they need more variety. Islam puts together some solid teams with great programs, but there seems to be some issues with injury with a lot of their teams. Is there something about the training regime? MacIntosh is legendary for his technique training - soft knees, posture, line, edge, and so on - one of the reasons why Virtue/Moir are that much better than Davis/White, and why Poje has such great lines. His teams seem to lack a little in speed and mental toughness.

    I don't think parents will want to ship their kids across the country for a whole season. But what if there was a fund to support top Novice, most of Junior and all Senior dancers in Canada, and teams would be able to get support if they want it on the areas they are most lacking from other coaches? Their current coaches would remain their base coaches, but they would get extra help on what they lack. Some of those lovely young BC teams at Junior and Senior could spend a month or 2 in the Summer with MacIntosh to understand lines and edges and quality steps. Some of L/R teams should go there for a week or 2 off and on just to understand what everyone is talking about regarding posture. MacIntosh team (I think I only count 1 right now, which seems unbelievable to me) could spend some time in BC for speed and mental toughness. Islam team (I only count 1 senior team there right now, which is also unbelievable to me) could spend some time with both D/L and W/L. Some of L/R teams would benefit from D/L depth and maturity of skating, maybe getting some choreography there, along with more technique. Some of the Quebec teams who are doing fun programs would benefit a great deal from L/R ideas. They really have the corner on these types of programs.

    Some of these rinks are so close to each other - Quebec, Barrie, Scarboro, Waterloo - that it shouldn't be a problem to even combine and hold a Senior or a Junior camp from time to time on a weekend to work through these things. Every other weekend a different location, or one central location in the middle. Again, this is the sort of thing Skate Canada or corporate sponsors should embrace and fund. The younger coaches can bring their new ideas and new strategies, and the more experienced coaches like Islam, L/R, and MacIntosh can bring their depth of knowledge and experience. W/L are a little far away, but perhaps there is extra funding to support the distance, and they fly in once a month or so. It would be fantastic for the skaters, it would help all the coaches, and it would definitely raise the quality of skating at competitions right from the beginning of the season. this could pay dividends with Junior and Senior international competitions.

    There is lots of support for the the top 5 athletes at Senior, and some at Junior. This program would be about helping build a solid, stable funnel of athletes to be ready to fill the spots when the top teams retire and move on. For some of the top teams (I'm thinking about Paul/Islam), it would provide them meaningful assistance early on, and allow them to remain training in their home clubs throughout the season. They will get what they are missing, have others to train with on a regular basis, and be more competition ready when they hit the international stage. For the young kids, it will allow them to continue to live at home or near their homes, but still get the full 360 degree training that a group of great coaches would provide. It's a winning situation for athletes, coaches, and Skate Canada.

  18. #138

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    NorthernDancers: I love this "fund" idea and the travelling to get what might be missing from other coaches who specailize is that area of expertise for short-term dance clinics!

    Obviously one has to stop old thinking where one can't admit to a weakness for fear of losing one's competitive advantage. There has to be a team building spirit to allow for cross coaching, but it certainly can be done, esp at the junior levels for sure.

    Actually, I think this idea might help ease fears the coaching staff might have of others poaching their skaters, since one in theory could now stay with the longtime coach with whom one has an established relationship AND still get the extra or specialized help one may need in order to progress in the sport, all without having to sever ties completely, or moving on to a new coaching situation to shore up what weaknesses may exist - a case where everybody in the Canada dance circle wins!

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    A little off the current topic, but they tweeted today:

    WeaverPoje (http://twitter.com/#!/WeaverPoje)
    Currently taking new Exhibition program suggestions/ideas!!!

    Tweet them your ideas if you have them.

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    Weaver/Poje were amazing at the GP Final. They were able to get level 4's on both Rhumba sequences in the SD and their FD was sensational. I think their FD is the epitome of the Performance/Execution and Interpretation PCS. Complete commitment and feeling. Wonderful to watch!

    They'll be in the hunt with Pechalat/Bourzat at Worlds for bronze. In the FD I'd give Pechalat/Bourzat the nod in SS, and Weaver/Poje the nod in PE and IN. IMO political protocol dictates the French will receive PCS 8.50 and above, and while some individual judges may go with Weaver/Poje, past trends indicate the French receiving a higher PCS total...so for Kaitlyn and Andrew to place ahead of the French, my guess is it will have to be done on TES.

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