Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 96
  1. #61
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    566
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Skate Canada's statement in regard to Jamie's death was most certainly appropriate. What is less fortunate is the stance taken publicly by SC officials about presenting fs as "tough" read "macho," read "Our sport is not associated with being gay," read "homophobia and insensitivity."

    Why can't the ISU and all federations focus on educating everyone about the inclusiveness of figure skating, about the fact that it is a great sport that attracts all types of people? Why can't feds and ISU celebrate everyone of our skaters, gay, straight, lesbian, transgender, all ethnic backgrounds? Please let's get out of the dark ages. Why not take a stance of inclusiveness and embrace all young skaters who take up the sport? Most importantly, ISU and feds, stop being quiet and start speaking up about all the different people who make up this sport, past and present, and highlight all the things that make this sport great ... Maybe by taking such a stance, SC (and other feds) could help young skaters like Jamie to see that they are not alone, that they have something special to give, and many people who love them for who they are, and that their lives are worth living, worth living ... Saying goodbye is not the answer. May your life not have been lived in vain, Jamie. Your father's tribute speaks volumes ... an angel on earth, and now, in heaven.

    Wake up, figure skating. Wake up, world.
    This. So very well said aftershocks.

  2. #62
    Watch me move
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Gwyneth Paltrow Fan Club headquarters
    Posts
    16,709
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Skate Canada's statement in regard to Jamie's death was most certainly appropriate. What is less fortunate is the stance taken publicly by SC officials about presenting fs as "tough" read "macho," read "Our sport is not associated with being gay," read "homophobia and insensitivity."
    I am no fan of Skate Canada for many reasons, but they did make it very clear that their "figure skating is tough" selling point was to emphasize the skill and danger in participating the sport, not "don't be gay". And AFAIK no one from Skate Canada has ever said words to the effect of "Our sport is not associated with being gay", because they know as well as anyone else that is not the case.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123870938255484175.html

    Quote:

    To do that, Skate Canada is encouraging skating officials and athletes to use words such as "strength," "power," "speed" and "risk" when describing the sport. Team members are being asked to play up the fact that they skate faster than most hockey players, jump higher than most basketball players and fall harder than most football players -- all without padding...[William] Thompson [Skate Canada chief executive] says his organization's words have been skewed, and calls the criticism from the gay community "ironic" because ice skating is one sport "where you can be openly gay and successful." He says he isn't suggesting skaters need to adopt a tough-guy image, only that they spread the word about how physically demanding the sport is.
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

  3. #63
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    4,012
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Fine, overedge, and thanks for pointing out SC "clearing up" how their "tough" pr approach was "skewed," read "misinterpreted."

    No problem with emphasizing the "strength, power, speed, and risk" involved in fs. It is important for the sport to educate viewers about all aspects of the sport, which the ISU and feds have failed to do for decades because of the ingrained elitist attitudes of many running/ ruining the sport. Okay, fine, fs is not an easy sport and that needs to be widely discussed and promoted. But just as everyone who makes up the sport should be embraced, all aspects of what makes the sport great, should be embraced and celebrated. So in addition to the qualities SC said they intended to promote, they should also include, grace, lyricism, artistry, choreography, performance, music, costume, as well as athleticism and technical skill.

    It's one thing to know there are a lot of gay skaters and to accept them on the down-low. Quite another to fully embrace them openly and normally without fanfare, and in equal proportion to those who are straight male skaters. To pretend that Skate Canada and other federations do not publicly have hang-ups about the sport being identified as "gay" is simply head-in-the-sand excuse-making. I think that the more the sport tries to present itself as macho, in fact, the more trouble they have pr-wise. Celebrate everything and everyone equally and promote the fact that there are all kinds of human beings drawn to this powerful, tough, tender, beautiful sport! It's simply not true to claim that fs is a sport where you can be "openly gay and successful." Ask Rudy Galindo, ask Johnny Weir. They were successful, in spite of ... All the other gay, still in-the-closet champions also disprove the claim by SC (as indeed does Patrick Chan's declaration during an interview that he is not gay. Why did he feel it necessary to make that clear? And if he was asked by a journalist, why was he asked?) Why not truly embrace and accept as a matter of course, everyone, and not try to tell young skaters that they need to wear more masculine costumes? Thanks to Johnny Weir and others, some of that "masculine costume" nonsense is changing.

    Again, a wonderful tribute by Jamie's father. Please may Jamie's life not have been lived in vain. This is not a time to be quiet, head-in-the-sand, status quo. SC statement after Jamie's death was definitely apropos, but maybe, just maybe not nearly enough.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 10-23-2011 at 04:29 AM.

  4. #64
    Main Offender
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    cooking with Alexei Rogonov and Nodari Maisuradze
    Age
    25
    Posts
    4,088
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    3107
    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Fine, overedge, and thanks for pointing out SC "clearing up" how their "tough" pr approach was "skewed," read "misinterpreted."

    No problem with emphasizing the "strength, power, speed, and risk" involved in fs. It is important for the sport to educate viewers about all aspects of the sport, which the ISU and feds have failed to do for decades because of the ingrained elitist attitudes of many running/ ruining the sport. Okay, fine, fs is not an easy sport and that needs to be widely discussed and promoted. But just as everyone who makes up the sport should be embraced, all aspects of what makes the sport great, should be embraced and celebrated. So in addition to the qualities SC said they intended to promote, they should also include, grace, lyricism, artistry, choreography, performance, music, costume, as well as athleticism and technical skill.

    It's one thing to know there are a lot of gay skaters and to accept them on the down-low. Quite another to fully embrace them openly and normally without fanfare, and in equal proportion to those who are straight male skaters. To pretend that Skate Canada and other federations do not publicly have hang-ups about the sport being identified as "gay" is simply head-in-the-sand excuse-making. I think that the more the sport tries to present itself as macho, in fact, the more trouble they have pr-wise. Celebrate everything and everyone equally and promote the fact that there are all kinds of human beings drawn to this powerful, tough, tender, beautiful sport! It's simply not true to claim that fs is a sport where you can be "openly gay and successful." Ask Rudy Galindo, ask Johnny Weir. They were successful, in spite of ... All the other gay, still in-the-closet champions also disprove the claim by SC. Why not truly embrace and accept as a matter of course, everyone, and not try to tell young skaters that they need to wear more masculine costumes? Thanks to Johnny Weir and others, some of that "masculine costume" nonsense is changing.

    Again, a wonderful tribute by Jamie's father. Please may Jamie's life not have been lived in vain. This is not a time to be quiet, head-in-the-sand, status quo. SC statement after Jamie's death was definitely apropos, but maybe, just maybe not nearly enough.
    THIS!
    "I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine."

    Bruce Lee

  5. #65
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    566
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Aftershocks is awesome.

  6. #66
    Watch me move
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Gwyneth Paltrow Fan Club headquarters
    Posts
    16,709
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post

    It's one thing to know there are a lot of gay skaters and to accept them on the down-low. Quite another to fully embrace them openly and normally without fanfare, and in equal proportion to those who are straight male skaters. To pretend that Skate Canada and other federations do not publicly have hang-ups about the sport being identified as "gay" is simply head-in-the-sand excuse-making.
    Don't twist my words. I did not say that SC is not hung up about the sport being perceived as gay. But it seems they and other federations can't win. If they try to present the sport as an athletic sport, they get slammed for not acknowledging the more artistic aspects of the sport. If they talk about the sport being artistic, they get slammed for not treating it as a serious sport.

    I think that the more the sport tries to present itself as macho, in fact, the more trouble they have pr-wise.
    And I think the trouble is more with how the world at large perceives the sport. There is only so much the federations or the athletes can do to counteract the attitudes out there. Some people are going to believe that all figure skaters are gay and that the sport is for gays and not macho men, no matter what evidence is presented to them or how the sport markets itself.

    as indeed does Patrick Chan's declaration during an interview that he is not gay. Why did he feel it necessary to make that clear?
    I don't know. Why don't you ask him?
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

  7. #67
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    4,012
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Yes, there is only so much we can do, if we are afraid to take a stand and make a concerted and genuine effort to do more. With heads in the sand, it might be a bit hard to think of anything to do other than to make excuses. To me, the "trouble" is more with how the sport perceives and tends to conform to cultural/ societal attitudes, biases.

    Maybe SC could start by setting up a scholarship in Jamie's name ... maybe make an effort to truly reach out to his parents and learn more about this young man and his short life. Maybe we can individually look at our own lives, attitudes, and think about what we can each do in our every day lives to accept and celebrate the unique differences of each other, especially young people, and thereby maybe begin to help young people become more accepting of each other's differences as well as the things we all have in common.

    Maybe Jamie's life will not have been lived in vain, if his life and death help save the lives of other young people, and maybe by not just reading and forgetting about Jamie's story, the fs community and society as a whole can begin to change our fearful, antiquated attitudes that still permeate and isolate, and lead vulnerable young people to a choice that doesn't allow a second chance.

  8. #68

    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    12,854
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    15965
    aftershocks, thanks for expressing your feelings so eloquently in this thread.
    I hope for; and await the day, when sexual preference will be a "non-issue" in skating/society; and when the varied ways in which ideas can be expressed within this "artistic sport" will be equally respected/valued by judges and public, alike.

    We have a long way to go.
    Last edited by skatesindreams; 10-23-2011 at 04:23 PM. Reason: to add comment

  9. #69

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    BC
    Posts
    8,987
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    15160
    Aftershocks is awesome.
    No, they aren't. Quit using this thread as yet another attack on a skating federation.

  10. #70
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    4,012
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Stop for a moment and contemplate what happened to Jamie.

    I stand by everything I've said here ... no attacks intended. If taken that way, please stop and think for a moment about the distress of a young man who chose to end his life.

    Judge me if you must and throw sand on what I've said. Forgive me those of you who might feel this is not the place to voice what I've said. If here is not the right place to express these thoughts in light of what this young man experienced, then where, and when? Think beyond, "Aftershocks is awesome" or, "I don't like Aftershocks." Ignore me and my user name, and think about Jamie for a moment.

    I agree, skatesindreams, a long way to go for us all...

    My deepest condolences to Jamie's family.

  11. #71

    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    bowing down to Robert Lepage
    Posts
    3,400
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    2696
    Why did Patrick Chan say that he was not gay? Maybe because he is not but is so often assumed to be.

    I started my teaching career at the junior high level and not long after I made it clear that no one in my class was allowed to say things like "that's gay" or other gay slurs or in my drama class portray gay characters in a non-respectful manner - it was a well known "fact" that I was a lesbian.

    But I'm not. And I didn't want people thinking something about me that wasn't true. In fact when Mr Accordion and I first started seeing each other he was told that I wouldn't be interested.

    It doesn't make me homophobic that I wanted to set the record straight (no pun intended). And I don't see any problem with straight figure skaters wanting to do the same.

    Do I think they and the media sometimes go overboard - focusing on the girlfriends and wives of male figure skaters? Sure. But as someone who was mis-identified for several years - I can see where it is coming from.

  12. #72

    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    1,129
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    This breaks my heart. He sounded like a wonderful kid, someone I'd be proud to count among my friends.

  13. #73
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    315
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Battle of the Blades is dedicating this show to Jamie Hubley- how wonderful.

    Such a sad story..

  14. #74

    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    12,854
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    15965
    The Accordion,

    Entire post:

  15. #75

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    249
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    337
    The Accordion, I think the question to ask is why Patrick feels the need to clarify this. What would does it matter whether he's perceived to be gay or not. Surely it's a concern only to potential dates/partners.

    Mahn, I'm quite surprised by your defense of the figure skating federations. They are responsible for creating the image of the sport. If they are beyond reproach, why have gay skaters felt so leery about coming out? I realize that the federations can't eradicate homophobia, which is a far-reaching social problem, but surely it's their responsibility to attempt to do that in the figure skating world so as to include all their skaters? I don't see them doing that right now. They seem cautiously to follow public opinion and even then to be a step or two behind it.

  16. #76
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    566
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by manhn View Post
    No, they aren't. Quit using this thread as yet another attack on a skating federation.

    How about quit using this thread to attack other posters? I never once "attacked" a federation. I disagreed with them. I have a right to without attacks from you. I wasn't the only one that disagreed.

    Afterhsocks, I'll delete my comments. I'm sorry. But just to let you know, Jamie Hubley's death has hit close to home for me. I never knew Jamie personally but so many of the kids and their siblings at my workplace go to the same high school (A.Y. Jackson) as Jamie. EVERYONE is talking about it. But so few people REALLY know what it's like. It has brought back so much pain from my past.

    While not gay (not that it's an issue with me AT ALL), I was a target of bullying through elementary and high school. It was relentless. I don't want or expect pity from anyone as there were gay students that received it so badly in my environment but believe me when I say this: For every poor soul like Jamie Hubley (I heard so many stories on how wonderful and talented this boy was as well as stories about the cruel people that abused him), there's so many others that are surviving, but JUST surviving, going through life feeling unworthy of love and respect because so many people made them feel that way growing up. This warped perspective does not end when high school ends. Feel free to dismiss this statement but Bullying is emotional violence that destroys who someone could have been, even if they manage to make it through alive physically. No one is blaming a federation for this tragedy, even indirectly. Young Jamie's sensless death probably has nothing to do with figure skating. However, the suggestion that a campaign pushing "manly" skaters as "tough" as opposed to skaters on the (what our society considers) effeminate, artistic side, however well intentioned, can send the wrong message is quite valid.

    So I was saying "Aftershocks is awesome" was because I agreed with everything you said and how well you said it. And I WAS thinking of no one else but Jamie Hubley AND the others out there on the brink. How wonderful would the world be when people aren't judged so harshly for not fitting into various narrow "molds". I have my doubts, I hope that day will come.

  17. #77
    Watch me move
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Gwyneth Paltrow Fan Club headquarters
    Posts
    16,709
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Yes, there is only so much we can do, if we are afraid to take a stand and make a concerted and genuine effort to do more. With heads in the sand, it might be a bit hard to think of anything to do other than to make excuses.
    If figure skating federations had their "heads in the sand" and were unaware of homophobia, or didn't do anything about it, there would be a lot fewer guys participating in the sport.

    IMHO skating federations are a lot more tolerant and accepting of different sexualities and different types of self-expression than the organizations running professional hockey, baseball, basketball and football - where players/officials are not only afraid to be out while they're in the sport, but are afraid to be out after they retire.
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

  18. #78

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Age
    52
    Posts
    10,237
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    10899
    Quote Originally Posted by oakl0008 View Post
    However, the suggestion that a campaign pushing "manly" skaters as "tough" as opposed to skaters on the (what our society considers) effeminate, artistic side, however well intentioned, can send the wrong message is quite valid.
    Where did Skate Canada (not the media interpretations, but Skate Canada itself) ever say that marketing skating as tough was specifically about male skaters?

    Most skaters are female.

    What about a campaign pushing "womanly" skaters as "tough" as opposed to skaters on the (what our society considers) feminine, artistic side that's all about looking pretty and sexy twirling around in sequins and short skirts.

    If you use words such as "strength," "power," "speed" and "risk" when describing the sport of women's singles skating, pair skating, ice dancing, and synchronized skating, how does that affect your perception of those disciplines and the women who compete in them? Does it imply anything one way or another about their sexuality away from the ice?

    If the message is that girls who skate competitively are powerful, tough athletes; boys who skate competitively are powerful, tough athletes; women (lesbian and straight) who skate competitively are powerful tough athletes; men (gay and straight) who skate competitively are powerful tough athletes . . . and, yes, they skate to music and get extra points for interpreting the music and pointing their toes, but first and foremost they are powerful tough, athletes, and glitzy costumes distract from the real sport underneath . . .

    Why would you take that message to mean that gay athletes are not welcome in the sport?

  19. #79
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    4,012
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Thanks for your sincere thoughts, oakl0008, and for sharing how you live in the community where Jamie lived and are experiencing more directly than most of us, the aftermath of what happened. Thanks also for sharing how it has affected you in a personal way and why. I did not intend to make you feel bad for agreeing with my other posts. In view of manhn's suggestion that I was "using" this thread to "attack federations," I wished to point out that my comments are not for the purpose of receiving compliments or negativity. Thanks for your understanding oakl0008 that I am expressing compassion for Jamie and other young people who experience bullying for being different.

    There are problems throughout our society and throughout professional sports, overedge. I don't think that figure skating has any less of a problem with being "tolerant and accepting of different sexualities" than other sports. FS has simply been portrayed (inaccurately) as being a sissy sport, with a lot of gay athletes. Instead of promoting the fact that fs is an athletically demanding sport and art that attracts all kinds of people, and instead of actively demonstrating that all fs athletes are fully embraced and celebrated within the sport, fs officials traditionally have fearfully tried to run away from the designation, "gay sport." Face it head-on instead and acknowledge yes, "We have gay and straight athletes who are stronger, more fit, more coordinated, and able to command an arena, and bring audiences to tears and to their feet at the same time." Unfortunately, arenas in the U.S. are so empty maybe partly because the sport does not face many issues head-on and hasn't better promoted the sport by embracing all their athletes.

    If gay officials and athletes in figure skating aren't "afraid," they must certainly be "uncomfortable" with publicly being known to be gay. Being gay might be accepted on the down-low within the sport, but clearly it is still not politically correct to speak out about it.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 10-23-2011 at 09:01 PM.

  20. #80
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    566
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Thanks for your sincere thoughts, oakl0008, and for sharing how you live in the community where Jamie lived and are experiencing more directly than most of us, the aftermath of what happened. Thanks also for sharing how it has affected you in a personal way and why. I did not intend to make you feel bad for agreeing with my other posts. In view of manhn's suggestion that I was "using" this thread to "attack federations," I wished to point out that my comments are not for the purpose of receiving compliments or negativity. Thanks for your understanding oakl0008 that I am expressing compassion for Jamie and other young people who experience bullying for being different.

    There are problems throughout our society and throughout professional sports, overedge. I don't think that figure skating has any less of a problem with being "tolerant and accepting of different sexualities" than other sports. FS has simply been portrayed (inaccurately) as being a sissy sport, with a lot of gay athletes. Instead of promoting the fact that fs is an athletically demanding sport and art that attracts all kinds of people, and instead of actively demonstrating that all fs athletes are fully embraced and celebrated within the sport, fs officials traditionally have fearfully tried to run away from the designation, "gay sport." Face it head-on instead and acknowledge yes, "We have gay and straight athletes who are stronger, more fit, more coordinated, and able to command an arena, and bring audiences to tears and to their feet at the same time." Unfortunately, arenas in the U.S. are so empty maybe partly because the sport does not face many issues head-on and hasn't better promoted the sport by embracing all their athletes.

    If gay officials and athletes in figure skating aren't "afraid," they must certainly be "uncomfortable" with publicly being known to be gay. Being gay might be accepted on the down-low within the sport, but clearly it is still not politically correct to speak out about it.
    Aftershocks, your message and how it's written is wonderful. I PM'd you with a more thorough response. Keep up the good work. <3

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •