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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by zebobes View Post
    Okay, I just looked it up. Yan Han fully rotated a quad toe in both of this competitions on the JGP this year. In Milan it was a little shaky, but in Austria, it was beautiful, with +2 and +3 all across the board from the judges. I think he's pretty set for senior competitions next season.
    Yes. He only learned it this season. Along with the triple axel, I believe?

    Yan Han and He Zhang are amazing.
    I am really enjoying the Chinese men this season.

    And Song was outstanding!! Never had him in my predictions before but now with that skate, his amazing quads and winning the free...wow.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    The packaging of Nan Song, Zhang Kexin and Geng Bingwa was poor. They all have nice jumps and decent basics, but those empty and uninspiring programs, skating through the music and ugly & laboured crossovers Someone needs to fly in a foreign choreographer to station in China for at least 1 month every season. What is Tom Dickson doing these days?

    Well, at least the girls all have very pretty laybacks now.

    Perhaps this is all going to be moot when Zhang He and Li Zijun are old enough for senior Worlds (next season?).
    How long then does David Wilson currently spend on Zhang and Geng's programs? I am guessing not a heck of a lot (and certainly less than a month)? Interesting that Zijun Li got Karen Kwan as choreographer vs. the others in Mingzhu Li's training base.

  3. #63
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    After seeing Song Nan for the first time at CoC, I was blown away by his jumps and it'll be very depressing if he ends up having a career like Li Chengjiang's. I saw glimpses of artistry in Song so I'm sure his presentations skills can be further developed, but I'm not sure he'll have the resources to do so in China. So it begs the question, why aren't Chinese skaters sent for long-term foreign coaching, e.g. the way Yu-Na was? Worries over divided loyalties? Lack of funding?

    I find Li Zijun quite endearing, too, and it'll be sad if she becomes another Liu Yan. Ditto Han Yan and Jin Boyang (who I just saw - thanks Ziggy! - and found amazing). It'll be fun with another powerhouse country in singles skating in addition to the usual suspects.

  4. #64

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    I watched a Universal Sports episode of Cup of China and Peter Carruthers was talking about how China has embraced the sport of figure skating and take it very seriously. I'm not surprised they are becoming such a force in more than just pairs.
    MERYL DAVIS AND CHARLIE WHITE - 2014 OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALISTS!

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrinalini View Post
    After seeing Song Nan for the first time at CoC, I was blown away by his jumps and it'll be very depressing if he ends up having a career like Li Chengjiang's. I saw glimpses of artistry in Song so I'm sure his presentations skills can be further developed, but I'm not sure he'll have the resources to do so in China. So it begs the question, why aren't Chinese skaters sent for long-term foreign coaching, e.g. the way Yu-Na was? Worries over divided loyalties? Lack of funding?
    I think it's politics more than money.

    Song Nan is actually quite expressive and his basics aren't bad. He just needs that extra push. Better choroegraphy and some polishing.

    I wish he worked with Kenji Miyamoto, Pasquale Camerlengo or Tom Dickson. Somebody creative and voidy.

    But he doesn't even have to go abroad. Wei Zhang, who choreographed fantastic programs for Sui/Han, would surely be able to come up with something more interesting than what Song has at the moment.

  6. #66
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    well,I don't know how to explain it clearly in English,but it's complex environment in figure skating world here.it's not all depand on the federation.for some reason,coach is more important here.if the coach is the leader,he'll get more support,then their students can get more support and have more opportunities and time to go abroad to improve their skating skills...maybe that's why boys don't train abroad this summer like the girls,and maybe that's why S/H can't spend too much time on the basic skating skill but do too difficult elements together.they're not coached by Bin Yao.they must win,then their coach Bo Luan can get more support...

  7. #67
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    <3 He Zhang's skating. it's amazing!

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by luCN View Post
    well,I don't know how to explain it clearly in English,but it's complex environment in figure skating world here.it's not all depand on the federation.for some reason,coach is more important here.if the coach is the leader,he'll get more support,then their students can get more support and have more opportunities and time to go abroad to improve their skating skills...maybe that's why boys don't train abroad this summer like the girls,and maybe that's why S/H can't spend too much time on the basic skating skill but do too difficult elements together.they're not coached by Bin Yao.they must win,then their coach Bo Luan can get more support...
    Thank you for the insight. Very interesting!

    It is true that it seemed like Bo Luan was not very much in the picture at the moment but that all eyes still seem to be on Bin Yao.
    That is a bit sad for Chinese skating because the competition between different coaches and styles can only help, in my opinion.

  9. #69
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    luCN, thanks very much for the insight, yes.

    The system seems quite top-down as I expected. I wish the federation focused more on the SKATERS' potential and not who their coach is and how they are judged to be doing.

    Back to He Zhang, here are his personal best performances (from this season):

    Short Program:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyUUiOlYjcM

    Free Skating:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RojXBlzQKHI

    I don't think I've ever seen a Chinese male skater who was that musical and expressive. And with such good basics too.

    It shows that Chinese coaches are getting better and better qualified and they are starting to pay more attention to the whole package and not just the jumps.

    I just love the short, there is a lot of upper body choreography and expression all the time. And elements are connected very well with transitions.

    Great job by Elvin Wong.

    The free is a bit more plain but still more complex than most and again, he's presenting it beautifully.

    And the whole package is there. Spins are good, steps are quite good.

    A very very exciting new talent. He's only just turned 15 so hopefully he'll manage to learn the triple axel in the next few seasons.

  10. #70
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    The Chinese federation bosses were quoted saying to the media that they'll definitely send Nan Song to a top choreographer for next season, and that so far they haven't done so because the skaters hadn't achieved notable results, and that top choreographers don't put much energy/effort into no-name skaters even if you pay the $$$. No mention of whether Yan Han will get a non-Chinese choreographer though. Probably not...

    Zijun Li, Kexin Zhang, and Bingwa Geng all had Karen Kwan as choreographer last year, and David Wilson this year. Maybe it was part of the deal in hiring Mingzhu Li -- luckily they didn't have to get a GP medal before getting foreign choreographers. But they only get to spend a few days in NA a year, not long enough to really work on their transitions or basics. I think Li just has a lot of natural talent with skating skills, as Chen Lu did with jumps back in the days.

    According to Chinese fan forums, Bo Luan, the coach of S/H and Y/J, apparently emphasizes only throws and twists in her training. Fans who went to see them at their training base saw that nobody out of the 10.5 (!) pairs there, all taught by Luan, were working on stroking or single jumps. She also punishes disobedient students by forbidding them to get ice time! Wenjing Sui was off ice for over 2 months over the summer for this reason. And another girl hasn't been allowed back on ice since 2009. Given how much Sui needs to work on her skating skills and all the rest, being forced off the ice for months at a time seems like the worst possible method! Especially now that she's hitting puberty...

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by feraina View Post
    According to Chinese fan forums, Bo Luan, the coach of S/H and Y/J, apparently emphasizes only throws and twists in her training. Fans who went to see them at their training base saw that nobody out of the 10.5 (!) pairs there, all taught by Luan, were working on stroking or single jumps. She also punishes disobedient students by forbidding them to get ice time! Wenjing Sui was off ice for over 2 months over the summer for this reason. And another girl hasn't been allowed back on ice since 2009. Given how much Sui needs to work on her skating skills and all the rest, being forced off the ice for months at a time seems like the worst possible method! Especially now that she's hitting puberty...
    Wow.

    Also, regarding choreography, even good performers like Han Yan are put at a disadvantage because the choreography is not that great. For example, the music cuts in his SP are just awful.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by feraina View Post
    According to Chinese fan forums, Bo Luan, the coach of S/H and Y/J, apparently emphasizes only throws and twists in her training. Fans who went to see them at their training base saw that nobody out of the 10.5 (!) pairs there, all taught by Luan, were working on stroking or single jumps. She also punishes disobedient students by forbidding them to get ice time! Wenjing Sui was off ice for over 2 months over the summer for this reason. And another girl hasn't been allowed back on ice since 2009. Given how much Sui needs to work on her skating skills and all the rest, being forced off the ice for months at a time seems like the worst possible method! Especially now that she's hitting puberty...


    Although it's also possible that they were working on throws and twists during that particular session.
    Last edited by Ziggy; 11-09-2011 at 12:38 AM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by feraina View Post

    According to Chinese fan forums, Bo Luan, the coach of S/H and Y/J, apparently emphasizes only throws and twists in her training. Fans who went to see them at their training base saw that nobody out of the 10.5 (!) pairs there, all taught by Luan, were working on stroking or single jumps. She also punishes disobedient students by forbidding them to get ice time! Wenjing Sui was off ice for over 2 months over the summer for this reason. And another girl hasn't been allowed back on ice since 2009. Given how much Sui needs to work on her skating skills and all the rest, being forced off the ice for months at a time seems like the worst possible method! Especially now that she's hitting puberty...
    This is in China, so i'm not surprised at all. I'd be surprised if it's not like this...

  14. #74
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    Sorry guys, didn't wanna go through the entire thread. But are Zijun Li, Yan Han, and He Zhang old enough for Worlds 2012? if not, Worlds 2013? Thanks.

  15. #75
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    They are Senior age-eligible from:

    Han Yan - 2011/2012
    Zijun Li - 2012/2013
    He Zhang - 2012/2013

    Boyang Jin - we don't know what his "official" birthday is
    Last edited by Ziggy; 11-09-2011 at 12:39 AM.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by feraina View Post
    The Chinese federation bosses were quoted saying to the media that they'll definitely send Nan Song to a top choreographer for next season, and that so far they haven't done so because the skaters hadn't achieved notable results, and that top choreographers don't put much energy/effort into no-name skaters even if you pay the $$$. No mention of whether Yan Han will get a non-Chinese choreographer though. Probably not...

    Zijun Li, Kexin Zhang, and Bingwa Geng all had Karen Kwan as choreographer last year, and David Wilson this year. Maybe it was part of the deal in hiring Mingzhu Li -- luckily they didn't have to get a GP medal before getting foreign choreographers. But they only get to spend a few days in NA a year, not long enough to really work on their transitions or basics. I think Li just has a lot of natural talent with skating skills, as Chen Lu did with jumps back in the days.
    The big boss may have a point there if he means David Wilson or Lori Nichol. They are just too busy and have their priority for the elites. But then again not event the best choreographer can work his magic if they only spend a couple of days on the programs with him.

    Someone like Tom Dickson or even Philip Mills might work. Just fly them in for like 2 or 3 weeks. Can benefit so many girls (and guys) in one go.

  17. #77
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    Yes, definitely get somebody who isn't a top name but creates good work. And fly them in to work with a number of skaters.

    Cheaper and you get more out of it.

    I mean if skaters get flown to US to work with David or Lori (most of whose work is shit anyway ) for 2 or 3 days, it's a waste of money and a waste of time. Nowhere near enough time to work on a program.

  18. #78
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    Exactly. Fly the choreographer in. Just for the top 3 guys and gals.

    The return plane fare plus accomodation for one or two weeks in China for 2 weeks is probably still cheaper than the plane fare plus accomodation plus ice time in NA. Plus they wouldn't have to fight for ice time in China and can make the most out of the trip.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by feraina View Post
    According to Chinese fan forums, Bo Luan, the coach of S/H and Y/J, apparently emphasizes only throws and twists in her training. Fans who went to see them at their training base saw that nobody out of the 10.5 (!) pairs there, all taught by Luan, were working on stroking or single jumps. She also punishes disobedient students by forbidding them to get ice time! Wenjing Sui was off ice for over 2 months over the summer for this reason. And another girl hasn't been allowed back on ice since 2009. Given how much Sui needs to work on her skating skills and all the rest, being forced off the ice for months at a time seems like the worst possible method! Especially now that she's hitting puberty...
    It sounds terrible.
    It seems while the younger coaches focus more on basics and choreography and show more respect to their skaters, the older generation unfortunately has not changed their mind.
    As for choreography, I think the state-sponsored sports system is still dominating in China. As the federation pays most of the money, it surely wants some remarkable results in return. So the coaches who have achieved a lot in the past, like Bin Yao or Mingzhu Li, may get much more resources for his/her camp. It's kind of "safe investment". Maybe to hire a foreign choreographer (+flights, accomodations, etc.) means a big expense for younger coaches and their students. And among chinese choreographers, Zhang Wei is really outstanding, but others seem not wiser than their predecessors. For young skaters, they don't have too many options.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    They are Senior age-eligible from:

    Han Yan - 2011/2012
    Zijun Li - 2012/2013
    He Zhang - 2012/2013

    Boyang Jin - we don't know what his "official" birthday is
    So we'll see Han Yan at Nice worlds next year? or he'll just wait one more year?

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