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  1. #441

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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    How will that be proven either way. It certainly is not okay to accuse the police of beating her, if it did not happen. But, did she do that? Or could there have been more translation issues? Did she say they physically beat her?
    During the trial she said that during the interrogatory she had been slapped on the back of her head.

  2. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu View Post
    During the trial she said that during the interrogatory she had been slapped on the back of her head.
    I'm not trying to be difficult, but for me there is a huge gap between getting slapped on the back of the head and being beaten. So, how did her claim of a slap, get turned into beaten? How would anyone prove whether or not she got a smack on the back of the head? There would, most likely, be no physical evidence of that.

  3. #443

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Is anyone here arguing that Amanda Knox is an angel?

    Is anyone here arguing that justice has been done for Meredith Kercher?
    Actually, yes. Look at the bit I quoted originally and one of the comments made after it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    I would still like to know, exactly, how Lumumba's name came up. was it volunteered by Amanda or was it from a cell phone message? Did she actually accuse him, or did she simply suggest names to consider. Not that the latter is okay, but it's not outright accusing.
    She said she was in the house on the night, had heard Meredith scream and then accused Lumumba. He's suing her for defamation, IIRC.

    It could merely be that Amanda was a scared girl being falsely accused in a language she didn't understand and in the confusion, said anything just to get the police off her back. None of us can know how we would react in a similar situation, maybe we'd do the same thing. It could also be her trying to throw the police off her own trail, as the prosecution claimed, but again there's no physical evidence so I doubt she's guilty of murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by DAngel View Post
    So why don't you and Allezfred create a thread about the Kercher's family? The title of this thread is "Amanda Knox Verdict Today". Is it so strange that people are talking about Amanda Knox (and the verdict), instead of the Kercher's family? Must every post here contain a condolence message for the Kercher's family before the two of you will be satisfied?
    Because it's the same topic and doesn't really warrant a separate thread. You can't talk about Amanda Knox without at least acknowledging what she was accused of.

    I'm not being completely one sided here. I've said I don't think Amanda is guilty of murder - I can see parts of both sides. Trouble is, it seems you can't.

    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    I'm not trying to be difficult, but for me there is a huge gap between getting slapped on the back of the head and being beaten. So, how did her claim of a slap, get turned into beaten? How would anyone prove whether or not she got a smack on the back of the head? There would, most likely, be no physical evidence of that.
    I could be wrong, but legally, I don't think there is much difference. In the UK, there wouldn't be, as they differentiate between hitting someone with a weapon and without. Assault could be there mere threat of violence, and not an actual punch or slap.

    It varies from country to country and there are obvious differences in Italy, but I think a slap and a beating are considered much the same. I think the only way it could be proven would be if the interviews were recorded on video, and ALL that video is shown. Otherwise, it's a case of she says v they say. I tend to think the police are clutching at straws to make up for holes in their own investigation.
    One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it's worth watching.

  4. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by *Jen* View Post
    I'm not being completely one sided here. I've said I don't think Amanda is guilty of murder - I can see parts of both sides. Trouble is, it seems you can't.
    How wonderful for you. You can now pat yourself on the back.

  5. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by *Jen* View Post
    Actually, yes. Look at the bit I quoted originally and one of the comments made after it..
    You said Meredith's family "got no justice", which suggests that no one is being punished for Meredith's murder. Someone is being punished--the only person other than Meredith's whose DNA was all over the crime scene. Now, was this justice fair? 30 years later reduced to 16? Hell to the no! Still, the killer is in prison. That's justice. You want to be critical of Guede's sentence, fine...and I doubt you would find any disagreements. But you weren't doing that.

  6. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by *Jen* View Post
    Actually, yes. Look at the bit I quoted originally and one of the comments made after it.
    Okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by *Jen* View Post
    Because it's the same topic and doesn't really warrant a separate thread. You can't talk about Amanda Knox without at least acknowledging what she was accused of.
    I don't think anyone has forgotten that she was accused of murder. Quite the opposite, in fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by *Jen* View Post
    I'm not being completely one sided here. I've said I don't think Amanda is guilty of murder
    Then you, too, must think that justice was served for Amanda, which is what people have been saying.

    Even if you believe that she was guilty of other things, she was serving time for murder. If she did not do it, is that not injustice, regardless of what else she might have done?

    If she slandered Lumumba, he should win his slander suit. If he does, then she will have to pay for that, will she not?

    But if you actually believe that Amanda Knox is innocent of murder, then you must be at least as outraged on her behalf as you are for Patrick Lumumba, no? After all, he was accused and he undoubtedly suffered--but he wasn't convicted and he spent only two weeks in jail.

    Quote Originally Posted by *Jen* View Post
    Assault could be there mere threat of violence, and not an actual punch or slap.
    Yes, that's also true in the US; assault is the threat of violence, battery is actual physical violence. Many people don't understand the distinction, but I believe those definitions are fairly universal in Western law.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  7. #447
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Yes, that's also true in the US; assault is the threat of violence, battery is actual physical violence. Many people don't understand the distinction, but I believe those definitions are fairly universal in Western law.
    Yes, but the word used above was beaten. What I wonder is how a slap on the back of the head translates to beaten. And did Amanda say slap on the head or did she say they beat her? For me, those are very different situations.

  8. #448

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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    Yes, but the word used above was beaten. What I wonder is how a slap on the back of the head translates to beaten. And did Amanda say slap on the head or did she say they beat her? For me, those are very different situations.
    I remember there was a video of the trial where she said she had been slapped on the back of her head. Of course I may be wrong. I am looking for the video on youtube, if I can find it I'll post the link here and translate Amanda's words.

  9. #449

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    Found it! I don't think this is the audio of the trial, I remember she was speaking italian and saying that a policemen said to her she was stupid, and slapped her on the back of her neck.
    By the way this is an audio of her speaking in english, with italian subtitles:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeuOG...eature=related
    The moment where she's talking about being slapped is around 5.20.

  10. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    When a verdict is overturned because there isn't enough evidence to support it, it would suggest to me that while the ones in charge of the verdict did their jobs, they did not perhaps do them well.

    Which is what I mean by flawed. Even in the most rigorous system, mistakes and miscarriages of justice occur. It happens.
    The judge names a third party scientific expert that should examine evidence. As the judge is no expert himself, he relies a lot on the third party person. The third party expert though, listens to arguments brought by both prosecutor's experts and defandant experts. So it's a mix: the competence of the third party expert, plus how convincig the other two parts are.

    (There's an interesting note to the side: local papers talk all the time about third party experts that aren't being transparent, or aren't chosen trasparently, in the land of corruption - where the prosecutor loses).

    The second third party expert overturned the results of the first one, hence the verdict was too.

    There's no reason to believe that those in charge of the verdict didn't do their job well, considering the evidence they were presented.


    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    This makes me so sad. I adore your country. I don't like to think anything negative about it.
    I never said Italy is my country (you asked, I didn't answer).

    But bad news never got better by going blind. Infact, awareness is crucial to address them.

    Italy is ranked 69th by Transparency International, from least corrupted to most corrupted countries. Behind Rwanda, Costa Rica, Kuwait, Malasya, Cuba, Turkey, South Africa, Ghana, and many more.

    If you consider the Bribe Payers Index (likelihood of companies to pay bribes abroad), Italy ranks 15th out of the 28 largest economies considered. Behind South Korea and Brazil, but ties with Hong Kong, Malasya and South Africa.

    Freedom House doesn't think italian press is free, only one in Western Europe, so that you can see Italy isn't part of the western world, even if you'd like it different.

    Netindex.com says Italy is 74th for download speed. That's after Barhain, Ghana, Libya, Kazakstan, Thailand, Turkey, Macedonia, Mongolia, Chile, Aruba, Vietnam, and many others.

    Again: in the last ten years Italy is the country whose economy grew less in the entire world, except Zimabwe and Haiti (Haiti would have been ahead of Italy if it wasn't for the earthquake).

    More: Italy is the country with more tax evasion in Europe, which puts it ahead of many other countries outside Europe too. - Greece might be battling in relative numbers, Italy is definitely ahead in absolute numbers.
    Last edited by loulou; 02-20-2012 at 06:05 PM.

  11. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by loulou View Post
    I never said Italy is my country (you asked, I didn't answer).
    That's true, but others told me it was.

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