Kharis RALPH Asher HILL

[pani]

Sorry, but for me Tobias & Stagniunas medal look like a joke. This look like Shpilband force nothing more.
I understand now in ice dance nobody watching did dancers skate with music or no. But R-H FD was most difficult at this competition, and they must have higer marks in CH and Tr.

[DORISPULASKI]

No, that was the problem. They didn't succeed in getting the higher levels. They got only level 2 on their steps, and a level 2 on their final lift. If they had gotten level 4 on the lift, they would have the medal. And it looks like that lift was designed not to get level 4, for that matter. (It didn't have enough rotations).

But without doubt, Ralph & Hill had the coolest twizzle sequence at Skate America.

Grushina/Goncharov pulled the same trick back at Olympics 2006 as Tobias/Stagniunas did here: Tobias & Stagniunas really worked the code of points, and used the fact that if you go slow on the footwork and use very open holds, you might be able to hit those edges enough for the higher levels. And they picked music that really appealed to the crowd for both their programs (Shakira, Let's Twist Again, Only You, & Tutti Frutti, so that the crowd was really on their side, despite it being an American crowd and not a Lithuanian crowd )

[pani]

So how judges could give credits for skaters, who use not too much open holds?

[DORISPULASKI]

Change the rules.

Open holds are not penalized right now and closed holds are only slightly rewarded.

[pani]

Thanks! Did you talk about positions in step sequenses or in transitions?
Because if you are talking about SS - i think they really need to change the rules.

[DORISPULASKI]

Step Sequences in Hold

Must be skated in any dance holds or variation thereof (unless otherwise specified by the Technical Committee). Any separation to change a hold must not exceed one measure of music.

Them's the current rules Rule 603, § 4

Then for Level 4:

At least 3 Changes of Hold are included
AND
At least 3 different Dance Holds are included

Nothing says you have to deliberately pick tricky, difficult holds, but hand in hand does not count as a hold.

This question from the Judge's Handbook is apt:

If a couple includes Hand in Hand Hold (not sustained) between Kilian and Tango Holds,
does it count for one or two Changes of Hold?

The Technical Panel will consider this as one Change of Hold (from Kilian Hold to Tango
Hold), for the following reasons:
�� Hand in Hand Hold is not included in the list of Holds which are given credit for
the “Dance Holds” requirement. Therefore any change from or to Hand in Hand Hold is not given credit for the “Change of Hold” requirement.
�� However, Hand in Hand Hold (not sustained) is considered as a transition from one Dance Hold to the other.

You might get a bump for a difficult hold in transitions, but the actual wording is

Variety of holds (not excessive side by side and hand in hand)

and the guidelines for 9.0 to 10.0 in Transitions is:

��difficult, intriguing, varied network of edges, steps, turns, holds for both
�� one move flows seamlessly into the next
�� creative pattern and lobes
�� creative linking of Pattern Dance Elements and rest of the dance (SD): 100%

When you drop down to guidelines for 8.0 to 8.75, the word 'difficult' is still used for hold, but by the time you have dropped to 7.0 to 7.75, it says:

varied use of holds with face to face positions

So really difficult hold might get you an extra .25 in transitions from some judges, but no where else is it rewarded, and only excessive hand in hand skating is explicitly not rewarded, and if you're at the R&H level & Tobias & Stagniunas level (mid 6's), difficult holds are not gaining you much at all. You would be better to work on getting Level 3 for your step sequence - which also improves a number of PCS components, since you would then have proof of stronger edges.

So to reward difficult holds, you'd have to change the rules.

In fact, I don't think the rules even have an explicit definition for a difficult hold right now, other than 'not a hand in hand hold', but I could be wrong about that. I just don't remember one.

[pani]

Thanks, Doris!

[csparkles]

No, that was the problem. They didn't succeed in getting the higher levels. They got only level 2 on their steps, and a level 2 on their final lift. If they had gotten level 4 on the lift, they would have the medal. And it looks like that lift was designed not to get level 4, for that matter. (It didn't have enough rotations).

But without doubt, Ralph & Hill had the coolest twizzle sequence at Skate America.

Grushina/Goncharov pulled the same trick back at Olympics 2006 as Tobias/Stagniunas did here: Tobias & Stagniunas really worked the code of points, and used the fact that if you go slow on the footwork and use very open holds, you might be able to hit those edges enough for the higher levels. And they picked music that really appealed to the crowd for both their programs (Shakira, Let's Twist Again, Only You, & Tutti Frutti, so that the crowd was really on their side, despite it being an American crowd and not a Lithuanian crowd )

The number of rotations was not the problem with the lift, Doris. It's a one handed rotational with change of level, which does not require as many rotations. The problem was that the lift has to go up and down one handed with no assistance form the other arm of the man. As Kharis goes up she is a bit twisted, and Asher has to use his other arm to put her down or she would fall, and there goes the level four, which they got at Nebelhorn no problem. Such a shame, it was a beautiful skate. They also got level three circular footwork at Nebelhorn, but as every dancer and coach knows, every tech panel can see footwork differently, and it's very easy to lose a level.

[DORISPULASKI]

Ah! I thought it was planned with the 2 hand set down.

Yes, the tech panels are all very different. Judy Blumberg is definitely a tough stickler, and I know she was at Skate America.

Their FD was very nice indeed.

[jl22aries]

This FD is one of the ones I've been re-watching. I really like it.

[pingu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmdYWw404g4
I like what the commentator is saying in this video
I was lucky to see both the SD and FD at Thornhill this summer, and in the SD (especially the beginning) Asher Hill reminded me of Leroy Johnson from Fame

[clarie]

Asher is a little hawtie with a beautiful smile while Kharis has a very lush figure for an ice-dancer.....very nice looking team, at least I think so (shallow, I know). I'm looking forward to seeing them in "person" this weekend. They get the award for most improved team

[Cheylana]

The number of rotations was not the problem with the lift, Doris. It's a one handed rotational with change of level, which does not require as many rotations. The problem was that the lift has to go up and down one handed with no assistance form the other arm of the man. As Kharis goes up she is a bit twisted, and Asher has to use his other arm to put her down or she would fall, and there goes the level four, which they got at Nebelhorn no problem. Such a shame, it was a beautiful skate.

Well, he did the right thing. Better to be safe and skate another day, than to take the risk and be sorry.

[pani]

You could see Asher and Kharis interview at ISU B page. Thanks, Tanja!
http://www.facebook.com/isufigureskating

[pani]

practice prior to Canadians

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYuDx...ure=youtu.be&a

pre-Canadians conversation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgZKA...ure=youtu.be&a

[clarie]

Love, love, love that program......good luck to them at Nats. Who choreo'd it, anyone know?

[pani]

http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00010381.htm
In bio - Carol Lane, Juris Razguljaevs listed

[pani]

From Aher twitter - they will use Can-Can for SD. Cant wait to see! Hope they will impress me next season, like they did with there tango at WCH!
And they will show SD at Thornhill in August.

[Sylvia]

Reposting this from the Canadian Dance thread:

http://www.icedanceelite.com/_blog/04-11-12.php

Nice blog entry about Worlds by Kharis Ralph.

A competition thread for COS Summer Skate in Thornhill has been started in the 2012-13 Kiss and Cry forum.

[Sylvia]

Ralph/Hill, Gilles/Poirier and other dance teams coached by Carol Lane & Co. will perform in an exhibition organized by Scarboro FSC/Ice Dance Elite on Tuesday, July 31st, 7-9 pm in Thornhill, Ontario -- more info here: http://www.sfsc.on.ca/so_you_think_you_can_judge