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  1. #41
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    Samantha Cesario is referred to as a "late bloomer" in figure skating. She really only broke through last year at 17 and then was derailed by a significant back injury. She is 18, but this is really the very beginning of her career as a top US lady. Not everyone has to hit their peak at 13 years of age..

    Cesario chose to do the JGP because she wouldn't get enough damned credit and recognition anywhere else. Senior Bs are not as closely followed and she would only get to compete once. Now, she gets to compete twice at least, maybe 3 times.

    I'm so tired of seeing these little kiddies dominate the junior scene. Cesario's maturity and elegance has been a breath of fresh air. Cesario is a "real" junior. She has never competed on the senior level outside of the United States. Your notion that junior skaters should only encompass skaters who are not age eligible for senior is ridiculous, because that only allows 13-15 year old kids to compete. That's ludicrous.
    Last edited by Jenna; 09-18-2011 at 05:09 AM.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    I'm so tired of seeing these little kiddies dominate the junior scene. Cesario's maturity and elegance has been a breath of fresh air. Cesario is a "real" junior. She has never competed on the senior level outside of the United States. Your notion that junior skaters should only encompass skaters who are not age eligible for senior is ridiculous, because that only allows 13-15 year old kids to compete. That's ludicrous.
    Thank you! Nothing more needs to be said.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    Samantha Cesario is referred to as a "late bloomer" in figure skating. She really only broke through last year at 17 and then was derailed by a significant back injury. She is 18, but this is really the very beginning of her career as a top US lady. Not everyone has to hit their peak at 13 years of age..

    Cesario chose to do the JGP because she wouldn't get enough damned credit and recognition anywhere else. Senior Bs are not as closely followed and she would only get to compete once. Now, she gets to compete twice at least, maybe 3 times.

    I'm so tired of seeing these little kiddies dominate the junior scene. Cesario's maturity and elegance has been a breath of fresh air. Cesario is a "real" junior. She has never competed on the senior level outside of the United States. Your notion that junior skaters should only encompass skaters who are not age eligible for senior is ridiculous, because that only allows 13-15 year old kids to compete. That's ludicrous.
    Skaters not eligible to enter seniors is exactly what a real junior is. It should most certainly not be a vehicle for seniors who cannot get into the senior grand prix for whatever reason. Its completely unfair on those juniors who are then deprived of opportunities to gain experience. Cesario should be focusing on US Nationals as if she does well there, then that is her opportunity to get into the senior grand prix, the Worlds, etc.

    What kind of twisted notion is your definition of 'junior'? Most peoples idea of a junior is somebody who is not old enough to be a senior - therefore, its bound to be full of what you refer to as 'kiddies'. The definition of junior should most certainly not be "a failed or late blooming senior". There are other types of competitions for such skaters such as the senior B's - which is exactly where Cesario belongs. She should not therefore have been permitted into juniors simply because it provides her with greater exposure. I'll tell you what else it gives her - a very unfair advantage over her much younger competitors due to her age - as her age gives her greater maturity on the ice! You feel that her return to skating from injury has been 'a breath of fresh air'. Well, I am sure it has been for many - but that does not mean that a junior competition is the correct forum for her skating. The correct forum is senior B's and US Nationals. Personally, I think she will do very well in US Nationals and therefore go on to do very well in next years senior grand prix. You never know, if Mirai Nagasu messes up again in US Nationals and Alissa Czisny has one of her off days in the FS, she may even make the US team for 2012 Worlds! Hence, whilst Cesario has been unfortunate with injuries, she still has every opportunity to break through into the upper echelons of seniors without entering junior competitions as an over-aged competitor with an unfair advantage

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    Will Lipnitskaya still be a jumping bean after her growth spurt? Something tells me no and the same goes with her flexibility. To many 13 year old's look like world beaters but we know what happens soon after.
    I don't think there's any reason to worry for Julia when I see what her coach does for her and especially for Polina Shelepen who has grown A LOT the last two years and looks like a completely different person now, but her jumps and 3-3 combos are still there and she improves her presentation as well. I think Julia is in very good hands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    I'm so tired of seeing these little kiddies dominate the junior scene. Cesario's maturity and elegance has been a breath of fresh air. Cesario is a "real" junior. She has never competed on the senior level outside of the United States. Your notion that junior skaters should only encompass skaters who are not age eligible for senior is ridiculous, because that only allows 13-15 year old kids to compete. That's ludicrous.
    I have no problem with Cesario competing at JGP as long as she is eligible, but I don't think she should beat Lipnitskaya or Miyahara in components simply because she is older and more mature. Two 13 y.o. skated brilliantly and got their well deserved scores
    Last edited by Autumn_girl; 09-18-2011 at 06:03 AM.

  5. #45
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    How is one's age an "unfair" advantage? I do not understand your logic. One's "age" does not automatically make them mature, they have to work at it. Otherwise, they just look clumsy and inferior. Miyahara has serious deficiencies in her presentation that you are simply unwilling to acknowledge! Tuktamisheva was only 13 last year and she was miles more mature than Miyahara. Age is only a number - it does not give people advantages. Skill does. Example: Charbonneau

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    How is one's age an "unfair" advantage? I do not understand your logic. One's "age" does not automatically make them mature, they have to work at it. Otherwise, they just look clumsy and inferior. Miyahara has serious deficiencies in her presentation that you are simply unwilling to acknowledge! Tuktamisheva was only 13 last year and she was miles more mature than Miyahara. Age is only a number - it does not give people advantages. Skill does.
    Miyahara looks like she is 8 y.o., indeed, but her programs were more difficult than Cesario's, interesting transitions, difficult entrances to almost every jump. She also has decent skating skills and performed very well there. I think the judges were right

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    How is one's age an "unfair" advantage? I do not understand your logic. One's "age" does not automatically make them mature, they have to work at it. Otherwise, they just look clumsy and inferior. Miyahara has serious deficiencies in her presentation that you are simply unwilling to acknowledge! Tuktamisheva was only 13 last year and she was miles more mature than Miyahara. Age is only a number - it does not give people advantages. Skill does. Example: Charbonneau
    Skill obviously matters, but older skaters have advantages over Juniors. They have had longer time periods on the ice, longer time periods to develop their sense of presentation and style.

    While obviously you have some skaters who will never be artistic. I'll point out to you that Michelle Kwan for example was a much more mature skater at 17 than she was at 13.

    I absolutely agree that in Junior competitions its really not fair to hold up the maturity of a 17 year old to a 13 year old.. I actually DO think senior bs should be more developed.

    Is it Miyahara's fault that she looks like an 8 year old? Can that really be helped on her part. It would be one thing if she was choosing to compete against Seniors and more mature programs. But she's currently competiting with Juniors. Should she really be encouraged to have a Salome at 13. Or should rather Juniors focus instead on judging basic skating skills, jumps and seeing that the skater has some form of presentation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maofan7 View Post
    Whatever it means, it certainly shouldn't encompass fully grown 18 year old women who belong in seniors. In my view, junior competitions should be strictly confined to those skaters who are not age eligible to enter senior competitions. That is, a junior in my mind is a skater who is not age eligible to compete as a senior. That way, there is a clear demarcation between the two. You simply should not have seniors competing in junior comepetitions simply because they are not good enough to qualify for senior competitions. For one thing, it unfairly deprives real juniors of places in junior competitions and deprives them of valuable experience.
    Yeah, I think when a female skater starts menstruating she should be junior GP ineligible! Screw the age requirements.

    And under your plan, I guess only pair and dance teams where both partners are 13, 14 or 15 could compete on the JGP? I'd love to see those fields...

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    Yeah, I think when a female skater starts menstruating she should be junior GP ineligible! Screw the age requirements.

    And under your plan, I guess only pair and dance teams where both partners are 13, 14 or 15 could compete on the JGP? I'd love to see those fields...
    I think pairs and dance is a bit different from singles. I don't know if I'd ban older skaters from the JGP, but I do think its more than a bit unfair to expect a 13 year old to have the same kind of presentation on ice as an 18 year old in designated Junior competitions. And if said 18 year old was given all kinds of scoring advantages because of it, wouldn't it kind of skew the competition too a bit. Because there's a reason the 18 year old is not in Seniors..

    I do think it was the right decision to ban skaters who were already doing Senior competitions from Juniors. Asada and Kim in Junior Worlds in 2006 when they weren't allowed in Seniors was one thing. As is Tukt and Sotnikova going to Junior Worlds this year. But Wagner going two years ago was another altogether.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Autumn_girl View Post
    Miyahara looks like she is 8 y.o., indeed, but her programs were more difficult than Cesario's, interesting transitions, difficult entrances to almost every jump. She also has decent skating skills and performed very well there. I think the judges were right
    I never said the judges got it wrong. I think the difficult of Miyahara's program was enough to put her into second.

    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Skill obviously matters, but older skaters have advantages over Juniors. They have had longer time periods on the ice, longer time periods to develop their sense of presentation and style.

    While obviously you have some skaters who will never be artistic. I'll point out to you that Michelle Kwan for example was a much more mature skater at 17 than she was at 13.

    I absolutely agree that in Junior competitions its really not fair to hold up the maturity of a 17 year old to a 13 year old.. I actually DO think senior bs should be more developed.

    Is it Miyahara's fault that she looks like an 8 year old? Can that really be helped on her part. It would be one thing if she was choosing to compete against Seniors and more mature programs. But she's currently competiting with Juniors. Should she really be encouraged to have a Salome at 13. Or should rather Juniors focus instead on judging basic skating skills, jumps and seeing that the skater has some form of presentation.
    Couldn't you ALSO say that younger skaters have an advantage, too? Smaller, less weight = easier to jump, easier to do more difficult combinations. It works both ways. It's not Miyahara's fault she looks so young but her presentation could be immediately improved with some guidance. She has a lot of potential, and there's no reason for her to look so sloppy. I don't expect her to look like Cesario, but she could improve greatly with just a little more attention to detail.

    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    Yeah, I think when a female skater starts menstruating she should be junior GP ineligible! Screw the age requirements.

    And under your plan, I guess only pair and dance teams where both partners are 13, 14 or 15 could compete on the JGP? I'd love to see those fields...
    I know, right?

    What about dance? And please, which top junior guys are actually under 16 these days? Very few. Shoma Uno is the only notable exception.
    Last edited by Jenna; 09-18-2011 at 06:30 AM.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maofan7 View Post
    Skaters not eligible to enter seniors is exactly what a real junior is. It should most certainly not be a vehicle for seniors who cannot get into the senior grand prix for whatever reason. Its completely unfair on those juniors who are then deprived of opportunities to gain experience. Cesario should be focusing on US Nationals as if she does well there, then that is her opportunity to get into the senior grand prix, the Worlds, etc.

    What kind of twisted notion is your definition of 'junior'? Most peoples idea of a junior is somebody who is not old enough to be a senior - therefore, its bound to be full of what you refer to as 'kiddies'. The definition of junior should most certainly not be "a failed or late blooming senior". There are other types of competitions for such skaters such as the senior B's - which is exactly where Cesario belongs. She should not therefore have been permitted into juniors simply because it provides her with greater exposure. I'll tell you what else it gives her - a very unfair advantage over her much younger competitors due to her age - as her age gives her greater maturity on the ice! You feel that her return to skating from injury has been 'a breath of fresh air'. Well, I am sure it has been for many - but that does not mean that a junior competition is the correct forum for her skating. The correct forum is senior B's and US Nationals. Personally, I think she will do very well in US Nationals and therefore go on to do very well in next years senior grand prix. You never know, if Mirai Nagasu messes up again in US Nationals and Alissa Czisny has one of her off days in the FS, she may even make the US team for 2012 Worlds! Hence, whilst Cesario has been unfortunate with injuries, she still has every opportunity to break through into the upper echelons of seniors without entering junior competitions as an over-aged competitor with an unfair advantage
    I see you've now neg repped me on my post.

    I doubt I would ever win a debate over Miyahira against you. With a name like "Maofan," its not very difficult to determine your bias..

  12. #52
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    Miyahara doesn't look eight. She looks like a perfectly normal 13 year old Japanese. What people seem to be ascribing is a western view of women and maturity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maofan7 View Post
    Whatever it means, it certainly shouldn't encompass fully grown 18 year old women who belong in seniors. In my view, junior competitions should be strictly confined to those skaters who are not age eligible to enter senior competitions. That is, a junior in my mind is a skater who is not age eligible to compete as a senior. That way, there is a clear demarcation between the two. You simply should not have seniors competing in junior comepetitions simply because they are not good enough to qualify for senior competitions. For one thing, it unfairly deprives real juniors of places in junior competitions and deprives them of valuable experience.
    I have done my best to not be involved in arguments here on FSU, but I simply cannot resist the temptation to respond to your assertions.

    First, I think you need to understand that in the countries in which there is, for lack of a better way to say it, a sizable figure skating "presence", many young teen skaters are in the novice level rather than the junior level. It is usually only the very talented skaters who experience much early success who are able to move up to the junior level at the age of 13 or 14. Because of this, it is not at all unusual to find skaters who are 17 or 18 at the junior level.

    It should also be noted that the Junior Grand Prix events are classified as developmental competitions for younger skaters of the ISU member federations. The JGP is very significant for some of the smaller countries--many of which simply do not have any skaters that would be even close to being ready for a JGP event before the age of 15 or 16, when they would, in fact, be eligible for senior competitions. If you look at the ages of the entries for junior ladies at JGP events (I will mention other disciplines in a bit), you will find that, while there are exceptions like Cesario, many of the oldest competitors are from the small countries. Of course, they generally do not receive high placements and the gap between them and the young 13-15 year old skaters from the "powerhouse" countries is quite large.

    Do you really think that the older, junior skaters from the small countries should be denied the opportunity to compete internationally except at "Senior B" events where the gap between them and the top skaters could be even larger and where they would, of course, have to skate longer, more demanding senior programs. Where, then, would the developmental opportunities be for the smaller federations? In reality, the age limits you propose for the JGP would give an "unfair advantage" to the 13-15 year old skaters from the stronger countries.

    Finally, as others have now mentioned or implied, the age limits affect the disciplines differently. In the men's discipline very few of the top skaters are younger than 15. The ones that are those ages tend to be in the lowest spots. The level of competition would be drastically reduced if your age limits were enforced. This would surely not please the ISU. After all, while the JGP is for the development of younger skaters, I think it is reasonable to assume that the ISU still does want some competition standards.

    Also, the higher age limit for male pairs skaters and dancers is quite necessary since the age gap between pairs and dance partners is, out of necessity, usually quite large. Since you support the idea of lowering the age limit for singles skating, do you also support the idea of lowering the age limit for pairs and dance? As others have pointed out, the number of eligible pairs and dance teams under those rules would be very few indeed.

    I do believe the age limits for the Junior Grand Prix are sensible enough as they are and do not need to be modified. It isn't unfair if a "late bloomer" like Cesario is able to take advantage of them.

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    Couldn't you ALSO say that younger skaters have an advantage, too? Smaller, less weight = easier to jump, easier to do more difficult combinations. It works both ways. It's not Miyahara's fault she looks so young but her presentation could be immediately improved with some guidance. She has a lot of potential, and there's no reason for her to look so sloppy. I don't expect her to look like Cesario, but she could improve greatly with just a little more attention to detail.
    But this is Juniors. Junior jumping beans are denied the opportunity to use their jumping talent at Senior Worlds. How fair is than to make them also compete against the maturity of older girls at Juniors. Personally I think a better option is to develop Senior B and Senior C competitions more. Maybe than other countries will use their younger skaters for Junior events.
    Last edited by bek; 09-18-2011 at 06:52 AM.

  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    I see you've now neg repped me on my post.

    I doubt I would ever win a debate over Miyahira against you. With a name like "Maofan," its not very difficult to determine your bias..
    Actually, no. If you had read my earlier posts, you would have noted that I think Lipnitskaya is the class act of this years JGP. I was a big fan of Sasha Cohen's and Lipnitskaya reminds me of her. I am not a great fan of Miyahara's skating, but I think her performance was better than Cesario's. Just because I am a fan of Mao Asada, it does not mean that I follow all Japanese skaters.

    As for the pairs and ice dance point, the current rule is that the male skater or ice dancer can only be two years above the upper limit in singles. Hence, the current rule is that whereas a singles skater cannot have turned 19 before July 1st, a male skater in pairs and a male ice dancer cannot have turned 21. Accordingly, if the rules were changed so that seniors could not enter junior singles competitions, then in junior pairs and ice dance, the rule would be that the male skater or ice dancer could not have turned 17 - applying the same logic as the current rules.

    I have set up a separate thread for the continuation of this debate here so that this thread is not entirely swamped by it.
    Last edited by Maofan7; 09-18-2011 at 07:01 AM.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    I see you've now neg repped me on my post.

    I doubt I would ever win a debate over Miyahira against you. With a name like "Maofan," its not very difficult to determine your bias..
    Repping is done privately, why do you post that publicly every time you get negative rep or even positive rep. If you want repping privilege why don't you become a premium member.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    Miyahara has serious deficiencies in her presentation that you are simply unwilling to acknowledge! Tuktamisheva was only 13 last year and she was miles more mature than Miyahara.
    I don't agree. Her programs are way more interesting for one. She also moves with a lot of ease and has better basics than Eliza T. I think she probably uses her entire body more than any of the junior ladies I've seen for the past 2 seasons. In fact, I'm not sure what serious deficiencies in her presentation you are talking? She's only as deficient as any 13-year-old. And much more brilliant than most. The only serious deficiency that I can see from her is probably her height. Maybe some people just need to get past that
    Last edited by shine; 09-18-2011 at 07:11 AM.

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    So-called "maturity" and "elegance" are not so important for the juniors. IMO, the PCS are not presentation marks, but impression marks for the judges. Factors like excellent skating skills, presentations, beautiful jumps, (vague but sometimes evident) star qualities will make good impressions. Especially for young skaters, the most highly valued is the expectation for future. Definitely Lipnitskaya and Miyahara had made better "impressions" than a 18 y/o "junior" who is still competing with 13 y/o girls. Cesario's "maturity" could be translated into limited prospects for future. Probably, Lepisto (a judges pet during the depression period of European ladies) is the only "successful" skater who aged out to enter the senior. Such chances are almost zero in the deep field of American ladies.
    Last edited by NMURA; 09-18-2011 at 07:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by millipied View Post
    She has grown 11 cm in one year and her jumps got bigger. You would know that if you have followed this specific beater. Flexibility never left Sasha Cohen, even though she never had the jumps.
    Yes but she's still rather tiny so the next couple years are when these girls start to struggle when their bodies don't simply grow in height but start to develop hips which can throw them off their jumps and such. Mira grew like a weed between 13 and 14 but it didn't effect her because she was still small but the next year her whole body developed and she struggled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    Yes but she's still rather tiny so the next couple years are when these girls start to struggle when their bodies don't simply grow in height but start to develop hips which can throw them off their jumps and such. Mira grew like a weed between 13 and 14 but it didn't effect her because she was still small but the next year her whole body developed and she struggled.
    Polina Shelepen was 158 cm and a beanpole two seasons ago and appeared much smaller than that the season before (08-09), and is now 165-166 cm, which is quite tall for a skater, with a woman's body and can still do 3-3s, and her jumps have even gotten bigger. Growing sometimes effects skaters jumps a lot but it doesn't have to. Christina Gao grew like a weed last season and is also around 5'5" now and managed to get her 3f-3t combo consistent while she was undergoing such a growth spurt. Some girls never grow to be tall or curvaceous, and sometimes even the girls who do grow tall are blessed to have a physique ideally suited to the sport. Sure, puberty makes some skaters lose their skills, like Caroline Zhang for example. But her case is a bit atypical because 1.) her technique was crap to begin with and 2.) she had a VERY drastic physical transformation where she went from being tiny to tall (for a skater) and curvaceous. And even she is jumping better now. So it's hard to say how puberty will affect said skater because for as many careers as it ruins, there are also a lot of survivors.

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