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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    IIRC Fratianne also won the SP+LP combined at Lake Placid (which was also calculated back then with mini-medals being awarded at non-olympic competition.

    So if there had been no figures there Biellmann still wouldn't have won (according to the ordinal system in place at the time).
    Had there not been no figures the scoring of the short and long programs would have been totally different for skaters who were well back after figures.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Had there not been no figures the scoring of the short and long programs would have been totally different for skaters who were well back after figures.
    As it stands, Poetzsch won.

    If the system of factored placements from '81 - '90 had been in place, Fratianne would've won.

    If no figures and the system of factored placements from '91 on had been in place, Biellmann would've won.

    ETA - the discussion above re Fratianne is intriguing. Does anyone think FC held her back technically? I'm not talking about poor coaching. I'm talking about playing it safe in the LP; doing what was necessary to win. Remember, there were rumblings of something similar with Kwan in '01

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    correction: I meant the SP combo in 79 must include a 2flip. I don't know what the combo requirements in 78 ws.
    Looks like double toe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BGnQHdfr10

    And required cross-foot spin for the men

  4. #24
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    I am not sure why Carroll would think Fratianne wouldnt benefit from continuing to improve her free skating. As it was Poetzsch was close enough to her in free skating ability the only way she won is if Poetzsch bombed like the 77 and 79 Worlds. Had she improved her free skating further she could have made up the points she trailed after figures more easily.

  5. #25
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    To be fair to FC, Linda had won two out of three world championships doing the same content. She lost in '78 due to figures and a more consistent Poetszch so presumably the focus after Ottawa was figures, figures, figures. After 1979 worlds, everything indicated Linda was the favourite for the OGM. I DO think she should have developed her free skating further, but they were given no indication that what she had wasn't good enough. Play it safe didn't work for Kwan (if that was even the strategy in Nagano) but it certainly did work for Lysacek and I was as happy as the next person to see Frank finally get his skater that OGM. Any competition strategy has a risk and it didn't pay off for Linda when it counted most but, as I said, the powers that be hadn't indicated that anything needed fixing.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by floskate View Post
    To be fair to FC, Linda had won two out of three world championships doing the same content. She lost in '78 due to figures and a more consistent Poetszch so presumably the focus after Ottawa was figures, figures, figures. After 1979 worlds, everything indicated Linda was the favourite for the OGM. I DO think she should have developed her free skating further, but they were given no indication that what she had wasn't good enough. Play it safe didn't work for Kwan (if that was even the strategy in Nagano) but it certainly did work for Lysacek and I was as happy as the next person to see Frank finally get his skater that OGM. Any competition strategy has a risk and it didn't pay off for Linda when it counted most but, as I said, the powers that be hadn't indicated that anything needed fixing.
    In fact, she went to Fassi after '79 worlds sometime to get help on figures, didn't she? And that is where the infamous Fassi to Linda - 'Come to me, I'll make you Olympic champion' conversation transpired, right?

    As discussed above, Linda's jumps were big and light in '76. She still had nice transitions into triples in '77, but she seemed a little clunky in '78 and '79 [lost in '78 when Poetzsch was clean and she had a turn-out or two; won in '79 when she stayed solid and Poetzsch tanked somewhat]. her '80 performances were overall better IMO than the '78 and '79 performances, but she was only doing 2 triples w/ no transitions and 2 double axels. I think in '78 she was still doing 2 triples and 3 double axels, despite the clunkiness.

  7. #27
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    ITA with floskate. It would've helped Linda and Frank if there were more head-to-head competitions between she and Annette leading up to Worlds though. But there weren't that many Grand Prix events back in those days; In the few pre-World competitions that existed, Linda and Annette never went head-to-head.

    It's curious why Frank never had Linda spread out her two triples. They were always the first two elements. Annette was the more inconsitent jumpers, yet she always did the triples much later in her programs (would've gained bonus points under IJS ) and planned 3 of them.

    Technically I was disappointed that Linda took out the split/back split/3toe sequence and the 2a-2t in her LP.


    Annette is now a technical specialist. In a recent interview, she said that when she sees Frank at competitions now, she always asked how's Linda doing. Back in the days, it was discouraged to socialize with your rivals and vice versa. So I think it's very nice that Annette still think of Linda.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Love Robin Cousin. Great Britain produced two of the best male free skaters ever.

    Does anyone know if Linda did a triple-double for her SP combination in 78?

    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    In fact, she went to Fassi after '79 worlds sometime to get help on figures, didn't she? And that is where the infamous Fassi to Linda - 'Come to me, I'll make you Olympic champion' conversation transpired, right?
    You have to wonder what would've happened at Lake Placid if Linda had decided to dump FC for Fassi. Maybe he could've gotten her a 2nd place finish in the figure portion.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    ...You have to wonder what would've happened at Lake Placid if Linda had decided to dump FC for Fassi. Maybe he could've gotten her a 2nd place finish in the figure portion.
    That is intriguing. It would depend on what 'pull' Fassi had. But, also, would he have challenged Linda in her skating in a different way than FC??

  10. #30

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    What was the alleged "deal" Fassi made to ensure Robin Cousins got the gold according to Carroll? If Fassi had both Fratianne & Cousins, whom would he have thrown under the bus? Probably Fratianne, is my guess, and then the results would have been the same.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwizzlerS View Post
    If Fassi had both Fratianne & Cousins, whom would he have thrown under the bus? Probably Fratianne, is my guess, and then the results would have been the same.
    If the deal was real and not the figment of various people's imaginations the idea was that Fassi and Muller would split the golds. Had Fratianne gone to Fassi then both he and Muller would have gold medal contenders in both events. From there a variety of deals could be made.

    The most obvious (and easiest to carry off) would be to let the guys fight it out and then the non-gold coach's lady gets gold.

    On the other hand, given the greater commercial viability of ladies skating in the west (esp back then) CF might have held out for Fratianne to get gold (since the mens event would be easier to fix if that were someone's intention). Many people forget that Cousins actually had _fewer_ total points than Hoffmann but the points were apportioned out so that Cousins had more ordinals (it was a weird system). Cousins victory was as paper thin as it gets.

    Interesting trivia: the men and women skated exactly he same figures in Lake Placid. While allowances for different groups of judges have to be made Poetzsch had a much bigger lead after figures (the highest total points of the competition) than Hoffmann did. Further Cousins did not make up the total point difference just the ordinal difference. Fratianne actually made up more of the point gap after figures than Cousinsdid but the ordinals and Poetzsch's lead were such that she basically couldn't win unless Poetzsch had a meltdown (or some of the other ladies hadn't).

    A corrupt judge (should they be so inclined) could have kept the same order of skaters but with less/more of a difference between places.....

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by floskate View Post
    The whole dance event was filled with Min & Mo's dramatik West Side Story FD with equally dramatik collapse to the ice on their final pose. Linichuk & Karponosov overhauling them for the gold and Regoezscy & Sallay coming through. A changing of the guard like this before an Olympics was very rare. Plus T&D made their Worlds debut at this event. That FD is still one of my holy grails!
    I loved M&M's West Side Story FD that year, especially the slow section. I was sad about their fall. L&K's win was fine because of M&M's fall but I always found it be such a chore to watch them because I found their style to be so cookie-cutter.

  13. #33
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    I so wish Linichuk had brought some of her incredible innovation of mind of her own coaching to her own skating. They would have been amazing doing some of the programs she created for her own teams.

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