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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southpaw View Post
    And you know the whole pretentious Hollywood female beauty standard? It really changed quite drastically because of Madonna. I remember when it used to be that it was enough for a woman just to be thin. She didn't need muscles. Then Madonna started hitting the gym like a fiend and came out all ripped in that Express Yourself video and then all of a sudden all the women in Hollywood were expected to be ripped. AND thin.

    She really did screw a lot of things up, ya know.
    I don't think encouraging women to be ripped is screwed up. If they are going to be thin as all get-out, the least they can do it work out so they are healthy thin and not unhealthy thin.

    But that accent...
    "Cupcakes are bullshit. And everyone knows it. A cupcake is just a muffin with clown puke topping." -Charlie Brooker

  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andora View Post
    I'd rather wait to rip apart Madonna's W.E. movie if it's true she ignores the whole Nazi ties Wallis Simpson had, rather than complain about a side conversation she didn't realize would be shared with the world.
    There are two clips up on YouTube. (They're labeled "trailers," but they're actually just clips.) IMO, they're pretty bad. The chasing-around-the-tree bit is enough to make one dizzy, and not in a good way.
    Charter member of the "We Always Believed in Ashley" Club and the "We Believe in Ricky" Club

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southpaw View Post
    And you know the whole pretentious Hollywood female beauty standard? It really changed quite drastically because of Madonna. I remember when it used to be that it was enough for a woman just to be thin. She didn't need muscles. Then Madonna started hitting the gym like a fiend and came out all ripped in that Express Yourself video and then all of a sudden all the women in Hollywood were expected to be ripped. AND thin.
    No, that was Jane Fonda and her exercise videos

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    I don't think encouraging women to be ripped is screwed up.
    There's nothing wrong with being ripped. What's screwed up is how Madonna set the standard for what music should look like. Before Madonna it was enough to look like Linda Ronstadt. Post-Madonna that pic of Linda is considered singer fat. Linda's not ripped. If Britney showed up like that people would be hollering "Go hit the gym and put down the Big Macs!" So when people criticize the ridiculously high standard for feminine beauty that Hollywood has for women and how regular gals next door can't hit those levels, well, Madonna is the one who kicked it up so high.

    Courtney Love was lucky back then because she was naturally thin AND ripped. Or maybe it was just that heroin diet she was on.
    The fastest thing out of New Jersey since Tricky Nicky in a Muscovian handbasket

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    No, that was Jane Fonda and her exercise videos
    Madonna showed us what we should look like; Jane gave us the tools to get there.
    The fastest thing out of New Jersey since Tricky Nicky in a Muscovian handbasket

  6. #86
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    Jane (and her vidoes) were around before Madonna though. But Fonda was into aerobic exercise, which doesn't tend to get you ripped.
    "Cupcakes are bullshit. And everyone knows it. A cupcake is just a muffin with clown puke topping." -Charlie Brooker

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    Crappy reviews or not, I can't wait to see "W.E."!

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    Jane (and her vidoes) were around before Madonna though. But Fonda was into aerobic exercise, which doesn't tend to get you ripped.
    Yeah, this is how a girl gets ripped.
    The fastest thing out of New Jersey since Tricky Nicky in a Muscovian handbasket

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Southpaw View Post
    There's nothing wrong with being ripped. What's screwed up is how Madonna set the standard for what music should look like. Before Madonna it was enough to look like Linda Ronstadt. Post-Madonna that pic of Linda is considered singer fat. Linda's not ripped. If Britney showed up like that people would be hollering "Go hit the gym and put down the Big Macs!" So when people criticize the ridiculously high standard for feminine beauty that Hollywood has for women and how regular gals next door can't hit those levels, well, Madonna is the one who kicked it up so high.

    Courtney Love was lucky back then because she was naturally thin AND ripped. Or maybe it was just that heroin diet she was on.
    I don't think Madonna and Britney are in the same league as Linda Ronstadt. Britney and Madonna are selling their sex appeal, their music is nothing without it. Singers like Linda Ronstadt and Aretha Franklin are selling their vocal ability. Their weight is irrelevant.

  10. #90
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    Madonna is more like an Andy Warhol but music form. Britney Spears is a product of other people's creativity who is just now getting respect due to the fact she survived the industry chewing her up and spitting her out and chewing her up again.

    Anyway, Madonna is hardly the first person who used her image and marketability to further her music career. Wasn't that Nancy Sinatra's claim to fame (and nepotism)? Also, wasn't that one of the reasons Diana Ross was pushed to the star role in the Supremes (that and sleeping with Barry Gordy)?

    "They can't see her face on a record!" - Effie White in Dreamgirls after being told she had to be pushed to the background in favor of Deena Jones because Deena was more attractive for audiences.
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  11. #91
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    Isn't pane e coperto just a different way of pricing a meal? The a la carte meal price in Italy does not include the cost of bread and washing table linens and utensils. So it is charged to the customer. It is also charged to the customer in the US by including it in the meal price. It isn't really free anywhere.

    A waitress shout out to Julie Kavner and Rik Ocasek (the Cars) -- total pleasures to serve and HUGE tippers. The good ones should get recognition too.
    I think I will have a snack and take a nap before I eat and go to sleep.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by aliceanne View Post
    Britney and Madonna are selling their sex appeal, their music is nothing without it.
    Right. And it was Madonna who made that possible because Madonna (and her limited vocal talent) was in the right place at the right time. I doubt she would have gone very far without MTV pushing her writhing body down a canal in Venice in a wedding dress. If she had to rely on vocal talent alone, as Linda and Aretha did, then she wouldn't have made it very far past "Holiday." That song was going to get people dancing no matter what.

    Would there be a Linda or an Aretha post-Madonna? Dunno. Doubt it. I remember all the flack Ann Wilson was getting when she put on a lot of weight because it didn't make their videos look good.

    There was a hair band in Jersey back in the late 80s/early 90s and they were getting huge and they got signed to a label. They were just about to make it. And then Kurt Cobain and his dirty flannel shirts came along and that was the end of that. If those kids had caught their break just a couple of years earlier they would have been big. But Kurt screwed it all up for them. They never went anywhere after Smells Like Teen Spirit came along. Right place, wrong time for them. And thus ended the era of the Headbangers Ball.

    Then Kurt died and we got the Spice Girls in his place.
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  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southpaw View Post
    Right. And it was Madonna who made that possible because Madonna (and her limited vocal talent) was in the right place at the right time. I doubt she would have gone very far without MTV pushing her writhing body down a canal in Venice in a wedding dress. If she had to rely on vocal talent alone, as Linda and Aretha did, then she wouldn't have made it very far past "Holiday." That song was going to get people dancing no matter what.

    Would there be a Linda or an Aretha post-Madonna? Dunno. Doubt it. I remember all the flack Ann Wilson was getting when she put on a lot of weight because it didn't make their videos look good.

    There was a hair band in Jersey back in the late 80s/early 90s and they were getting huge and they got signed to a label. They were just about to make it. And then Kurt Cobain and his dirty flannel shirts came along and that was the end of that. If those kids had caught their break just a couple of years earlier they would have been big. But Kurt screwed it all up for them. They never went anywhere after Smells Like Teen Spirit came along. Right place, wrong time for them. And thus ended the era of the Headbangers Ball.

    Then Kurt died and we got the Spice Girls in his place.
    I'm really failing to understand your logic, or misplaced angst about Madonna. So if Madonna was there in the right place at the right time thanks to MTV, then shouldn't your angst be going to MTV?

    I mean, there were a dozen teeny-boppers at the time selling their sex appeal and pop music on MTV at the time. Madonna was pretty much the only one to make a 20+ year career out of it.

  14. #94
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    Not only that, but it's not as music was made up of entirely homely-looking people pre-MTV either. A lot of artists used their looks and sex appeal in order to sell records way before MTV. Let's face it, popular music sales are geared towards the younger demographic...bands/artists that young teen girls/boys can swoon over and/or want to emulate because they have been the biggest market since the invention of recorded music. That and the fact that children tend not to like the music of their parents are the constants of music consumerism.

    Also, yes, Madonna used the music video medium to further her career and has been successful at that more than most (or all) of her contemporaries, but all of that, though arguably necessary, is not sufficient to explain her longevity.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by hydro View Post
    I'm really failing to understand your logic, or misplaced angst about Madonna. So if Madonna was there in the right place at the right time thanks to MTV, then shouldn't your angst be going to MTV?
    Actually, after I wrote all that I started wondering who was it, really? Was it Madonna, or was it the Eville Viacom? I think they're two sides of the same coin and simply enjoyed and prospered from their symbiotic relationship. Kinda like Democrats and Republicans, Wall Street and Congress, Hot Dogs and Liverwurst. No, scratch the liverwurst. There's just no other side to hot dogs, I'm afraid. They stand alone in glory.
    The fastest thing out of New Jersey since Tricky Nicky in a Muscovian handbasket

  16. #96
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    Agreed VIETgrlTerifa.

    I'm a child of the 80s. I remember Madonna coming on the scene. It is a time that changed pop music and it became more image oriented (it wasn't the first time it was image oriented...it just became a larger factor). But the blame goes to MTV, the record companies and the entertainment media. Madonna was more or less a creation of all of theirs to suit the times. Not saying she wasn't independent and did not have her own ideas--but she was (to borrow a Paul Simon title) "born at the right time". Who makes it in pop music is (and nearly always has been) manipulated by the industry. After all...the industry created the Monkees long before the Spice Girls et al.

  17. #97
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    To quote the Simpsons: "The Monkees weren't about music, Marge. They were about rebellion, about political and social upheaval!"
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Also, yes, Madonna used the music video medium to further her career and has been successful at that more than most (or all) of her contemporaries, but all of that, though arguably necessary, is not sufficient to explain her longevity.
    Her longevity is from her "great business sense" for which she's constantly complimented. Nevermind Madonna, why the hell is Gene Simmons still around??? KISS was a band that relied heavily on theatrics and image. I lurved me some KISS, I was in the KISS Army when I was 7. But that was 1976. It's 2011. Why the hell is old fart Gene Simmons on television? Well, because he's exploiting the reality TV trend to get himself out there and he's a shameless self-promoter and self-marketer. He admits that freely. Madonna probably learned a few tricks from him. KISS wasn't about making great music, it was about creating a vehicle to pull money out of people's pockets. When he saw Ozzy do his show years ago he immediately wanted to jump on that bandwagon. I remember reading an article where he basically said "My life's interesting. I can do that reality schtick, too. Who wants to make a deal with me?"

    It ain't art, it's commerce.
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  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob View Post
    Isn't pane e coperto just a different way of pricing a meal? The a la carte meal price in Italy does not include the cost of bread and washing table linens and utensils. So it is charged to the customer. It is also charged to the customer in the US by including it in the meal price. It isn't really free anywhere.
    In most restaurants, in Italy, it is incorporated into the cost of the meal. It is in the bars where the coperto is most noticeable. Most places like that don't have linens and the tiny spoon you get at the counter is the same as the one you get at the table. And there is no pane served. I understand that they want to charge a bit more for you to sit at a table, it's how much more they charge. Don't get me wrong, I love, love, love Italy, I just find the coperto amusing.

    But, my earlier point was that the coperto is not a tip, the waiter doesn't get it, the establishment does. So, if you're in Italy, you would leave a tip (if you choose to) in addition to the coperto.

    PDilemma, I agree about the Monkees. They were the first totally created for a market based band. I suppose Davey Jones had some talent, he was a child actor (Oliver). Mickey Dolenz was a child actor as well, but not a singer. They were mediocre. And from what I've read Michael Nesmith was a real shit, making back door deals and excluding the others.
    Last edited by cruisin; 09-08-2011 at 10:03 PM.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andora View Post
    The Lady Gaga/Madonna comparison regarding their fans doesn't sit right. Was Madonna always a bitch to her fans, even at the beginning? Because Lady Gaga isn't exactly an established artist of 25-some years yet. Not that established musicians get a pass to be a pill, but it seems many stars are fairly appreciative at the beginning.

    ....
    Michael Musto of the Village Voice said that when Madonna used to play the Downtown club scene around '81, she was quite nasty to everyone and this was pre-fame

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