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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    I actually disagree a bit. I've noticed that as a skater's reputation increases, GOE does tend to increase as well.
    Actually, I find that the skating skills mark can increase with reputation.

    Takahiko Kozuka, for instance--fantastic skating skills, but he was averaging mid-7s in SS for the 09-10 season. But last season, esp. with some new titles under his belt, he was up to the mid-8s despite the fact that there wasn't any substantial improvement (IMO, his SS was very good for awhile already).

  2. #22
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    To be senior and competitive internationally, I think skaters should have a certain level of speed, edge quality and ease of movement. Not everyone needs to move like the Japanese guys, but they shouldn't all crawl like Kevin VDP either. That's why I was never for Bonaly winning a World title from 93 to 95 or for Caroline Zhang making Worlds in 09.

    I personally also have an internal standard for style and musicality but understand that these are way too subjective to be dealbreaker qualities.

    Encouraging different jumps and spins make sense but my focus would be on takeoffs rather than rotations. (i.e. skaters should attempt at least 5 types of takeoffs and all 3 basic spin positions as a diversity requirement, otherwise a deduction will be incurred)

  3. #23

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    Encouraging different jumps and spins make sense but my focus would be on takeoffs rather than rotations. (i.e. skaters should attempt at least 5 types of takeoffs and all 3 basic spin positions as a diversity requirement, otherwise a deduction will be incurred)
    But the problem with focusing on takeoffs rather than rotations is that it puts a woman who is missing a 3 sal at a much more disadvantage than someone who is missing a 2loop. A double loop, or a double toe can are tacked onto the end of a combination anyways. But a 3 sal has to begin a combination. Kim for example wouldn't be hit at all (since she does double loops at the end of competitions) But Asada would have to give away a valuable pass. And I really don't think that's fair. The only way that could count is if the rule stated that the double toe/double loop had to begin the combo...That's the only way said scenario would be truly fair.

    And I think in different levels there's a standard for accepted rotations. For example at some levels singles, should be expected as a norm, in others doubles...

  4. #24
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    Asada has been attempting all 6 takeoffs this past season. But say if Czisny doesn't want to avoid a deduction she can do a 3toe 1/2 loop 2sal, and Ando can do a 2axel 1/2 loop 2flip, for their 3 jump combo.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    After all the 1.9 point difference between the triple lutz and triple toe is extremely negligible and allows someone like Lepisto to get away with such a crappy jump layout.
    While I agree with you about the difference of point, I don't think Lepisto has a crappy layout. She had 3Lutz, 3T/3T, two 3Loops...and her jumps have a good technique.

    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    I actually disagree a bit. I've noticed that as a skater's reputation increases, GOE does tend to increase as well.
    Yes, that's probably true, but IMO, it's often deserved. In fact, I don't remember a bad jump with +2. But we see very good jumps with +0 or +1.
    The thing is that judges hesitate to give +3 for a very good jump, especially if the skater is not well-known !

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    But the problem with focusing on takeoffs rather than rotations is that it puts a woman who is missing a 3 sal at a much more disadvantage than someone who is missing a 2loop. A double loop, or a double toe can are tacked onto the end of a combination anyways. But a 3 sal has to begin a combination.
    Not necessarily, now that something-half loop-salchow or something-half loop-flip count as combinations with full base value, as opposed to sequences with 0.8 multiplier as originally the case.

    One-foot axel-triple salchow combination has also always been an option.

    That or double axel-half loop-triple salchow would be viable plans to fit the required axel takeoff plus the salchow takeoff into one jump pass and still leave six more passes, including two more combinations, for a loop and all the toe jumps including repeats.

    Then if the skater lost speed on the back inside landing of the previous jump and couldn't pull off the triple salchow, she could still get bonus credit for including a double salchow as opposed to leaving out that takeoff entirely, but she would lose the difference in base value between a triple and double salchow. Same as if a skater ended up doubling the only triple loop or triple toe loop in the program that was planned as the second jump of a combination following double axel or a different triple. Only difference is they would probably have planned other double toes and/or double loops in other combinations.

    I think if there is to be a bonus for including six different takeoffs, I'd award a lower bonus (maybe 2.0 points) for accomplishing it with all jumps at least double, and a higher bonus (maybe 4.0) for accomplishing it with all jumps at least triple. For ladies, maybe the higher bonus could apply for five triples plus double axel.

    Otherwise, for skaters who simply cannot do triple lutz, flip, or loop, never have and never will (and there are plenty of senior ladies for whom that is true who compete internationally but not at the medal-contending level), rewarding only triples does not give them an incentive to try those takeoffs.

  7. #27

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    I think if there is to be a bonus for including six different takeoffs, I'd award a lower bonus (maybe 2.0 points) for accomplishing it with all jumps at least double, and a higher bonus (maybe 4.0) for accomplishing it with all jumps at least triple. For ladies, maybe the higher bonus could apply for five triples plus double axel.
    I'm fine with giving a slight bonus for doubles, only if there's a huge bigger bonus. for triples. The reason I want a bonus for triples is because I really don't think they are valued enough...

  8. #28

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    I didn't think I had anything to contribute to this thread, but I do have a few thoughts.

    First of all, a deal breaker is often in the judge's mind. The reputation of a skater has a big impact when it comes to the PCS marks. The jumps have been taken care of, to some extent, by having the points assigned, and having a technical specialist. However, when an unknown skater or a skater with a reputation for being inconsistent performs well in a competition, those past performances are a deal breaker in some judges' minds. It should not be, but that's the way it is.

    From my perspective, it is not necessary to do all 6 jumps to get bonus credit. However, if a skater lands in competition a jump or a jump combination that no one else has landed, he/she should get bonus credit. For example, someone lands a 4S-3t combination, while the most other skaters can do is either a 4S by itself or a 4t-3t combination, the skater should get some bonus points. If a skater performs a jump for the first time ever in the sport, he/she should get bonus points (e.g. someone lands a quad lutz or a quad loop).

    It is not to say the skater must win because of the bonus points, but in a close competition that may be enough to put him/her over the top.

    There needs to be a certain minimum to be competing at the GP and higher level. I would say at least 3 different jumps (including 2A) for the ladies and 4 different triple jumps (or 1 quad and 3 triple jumps, one of which may be the same as the quad) for the men. In addition, a spiral sequence is a must for the ladies, but not the ugly kind we were seeing a few years ago, but rather one that expresses the music well and is well executed (secure edge, flow, position, etc.). I am OK with the current spins and footwork requirements. If a skater misses one of the spins or the footwork, there needs to be a bigger penalty, which could take the skater out of championship contention.
    Last edited by Vash01; 08-29-2011 at 05:27 PM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    There needs to be a certain minimum to be competing at the GP and higher level. I would say at least 3 different jumps (including 2A) for the ladies and 4 different triple jumps (or 1 quad and 3 triple jumps, one of which may be the same as the quad) for the men.
    This is very close to how the current TES qualification requirements for senior-level ISU Championships and Grand Prix events actually function.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    If a skater misses one of the spins or the footwork, there needs to be a bigger penalty, which could take the skater out of championship contention.
    How would that work? Would you assign a higher base value to the element? If so, you would be lowering the comparative value of jumps.

    As it is, we have seen at least one skater taken out of championship contention for missing one of the spins. Carolina Kostner lost the 2009 European Championship to Laura Lepistö because she screwed up her third FS spin and was therefore deemed to have done two change-foot combination spins, the second of which wasn't counted.

  10. #30

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    While I agree with you about the difference of point, I don't think Lepisto has a crappy layout. She had 3Lutz, 3T/3T, two 3Loops...and her jumps have a good technique.
    There was nothing wrong with Laura's planned jump content. But Laura's actual jumps were 3 lutz 3t/3toe and then all doubles. And that absolutely IS a crappy layout. She almost always does a lot of doubles. If Laura had skated like she did at the Olympics nobody would have had a problem with Laura's medal. The issue isn't that Laura can't do those triples. The issue is that as long as Laura stays on her feet she gets rewarded with good scores, and the judges have never really hit her for doubling. She's been rewarded time and after time for doing much easier jump content than everyone else. And its not particulary fair. Especially since once again Laura can do 3 loops, can do 3 salchows. I won't scream at Laura for not having a 3 flip, yes I'd like to see maybe 3 points taken out for that. But in the end of the day, that's not a deal breaker. But to see a skater doubling jumps they are more than capable of doing, and getting rewarded for this. Whereas everyone else is doing 5/6 triples...

    And while yes Laura has great choregraphy and skating skills. So does Kostner. And Phaneuf skated beautifully too. And while Ando may not be my favorite in terms of personality or choregraphy. Her skating skills are fine too. I agree the ultimate deal breaker is lack of skating skills. But to me I'd like to see a balance between jumps, skating skills and artistry.

    Look skaters should do what skaters are capable of doing. I'm not going to scream at Kostner when she lowered her tech content last season due to her injury. Carolina did what Carolina had to do. But if your jump content/layout is going to be that much lower than everyone else's you should take a hit in the TES department. And looking at scores, I'm not seeing it.
    Last edited by bek; 08-29-2011 at 07:31 PM.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    I am OK with the current spins and footwork requirements. If a skater misses one of the spins or the footwork, there needs to be a bigger penalty, which could take the skater out of championship contention.
    I agree, they can still win but give credit where it is due and deduct were it isn't.

    Here is an example were the PCS marks should have reflected what was going on out on the ice and was not. At worlds this year Aliona and Robin had a perfect performance and received a 71.93 in PCS:

    SS 8.96
    TR 8.79
    PE 9.14
    CH 9.00
    IN 9.07

    But at the EC where Aliona fell out of her SBS pairs spins they receive a 69.67 even though she stood there for over 13 seconds while her partner finished the element:

    SS 8.87
    TR 8.46
    PE 8.43
    CH 8.93
    IN 8.93

    They didn't get credit for the spin but points should have been deducted in the Performance/Execution category and was not. Maybe the judges thought the pairs spin deduction was enough, either way the deduction was not properly use in all areas or at worlds they should have received an 11.00.

    I was also rather see someone skate cleanly with all level 4s and triple jumps than skate cleanly with level 2s and quads.

  12. #32

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    I was also rather see someone skate cleanly with all level 4s and triple jumps than skate cleanly with level 2s and quads.
    Don't you think though it should depend on the quality of the level 2s versus the level fours. I mean some of these level four elements look downright awful. What if someone shows up with a level 2 spin that is original shows off new positions etc and is well executed. I'd rather see an original level 2 spin than a monstrosity of a level 4 one.

    Same with footwork although footwork does show of skating skills. Rather see fast, well executed level 2 footwork. Than clumbered, slow level 4.

    In general I miss seeing spins like Lambiel's 6.0 spins.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Don't you think though it should depend on the quality of the level 2s versus the level fours. I mean some of these level four elements look downright awful. What if someone shows up with a level 2 spin that is original shows off new positions etc and is well executed. I'd rather see an original level 2 spin than a monstrosity of a level 4 one.

    Same with footwork although footwork does show of skating skills. Rather see fast, well executed level 2 footwork. Than clumbered, slow level 4.

    In general I miss seeing spins like Lambiel's 6.0 spins.
    I did say all of them skating cleaning, so all things being equal, just because someone has a quad doesn't mean they should automatically mean they win.

    They are plenty of other factors, just like if a skater falls but has all level 4s should/does win over someone with all level 2 and no fall because they have more points.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    I did say all of them skating cleaning, so all things being equal, just because someone has a quad doesn't mean they should automatically mean they win.

    They are plenty of other factors, just like if a skater falls but has all level 4s should/does win over someone with all level 2 and no fall because they have more points.
    But you said the someone with all level fours and triples, and someone with all level 2s and quads. The level 2 person is making up points with quads. (not a little thing).

    Someone can be clean but still have slow labored spins etc. Its still clean. Just like someone can have clean jumps but still not be spectacular jumps. I remember Plushy scoring higher on spins in Torino than Lambiel. And some of it was that Plushy did work harder than Lambiel at getting level 4s. Plushenko's spins were "clean" and executed okay. But in terms of what to watch I wouldn't call them better than Lambiels. I know Lambiel said he had a hard time with the spin rules. He was taught to spin one way, and mastered it and then they changed everyting. He was hoping he'd get all plus 3s for his gorgeous spins but that didn't happen, and still do level ones. I'm just calling out in general that I disagree with the prefer level fours and triples to quads and levels 2. It would depend on the quality of the jumps and spins footwork to me. And I do agree that quad shouldn't necessarily mean you win..
    Last edited by bek; 08-29-2011 at 07:51 PM.

  15. #35

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    Taking the same attitude toward jumps...

    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Don't you think though it should depend on the quality of the level 2s versus the level fours. I mean some of these level four elements look downright awful.
    Don't you think it sh ould depend on the quality of the double jumps versus the triples? I mean some of those triple jumps look downright awful.

    What if someone shows up with a level 2 spin that is original shows off new positions etc and is well executed. I'd rather see an original level 2 spin than a monstrosity of a level 4 one.
    What if someone shows up with a double jump combination that is original shows off new connections* or transitions is well executed. I'd rather see an original double jump combination than a monstrosity of a triple-triple.




    *For example, double lutz-reverse double lutz or double salchow-double half loop-double salchow.

  16. #36

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    ok downright awful.

    Don't you think it sh ould depend on the quality of the double jumps versus the triples? I mean some of those triple jumps look downright awful.
    Double jumps are something to quote Johnny Weir novices do. The ISU has ever changing rules on the subject of spins. Or a skater doing 7 revolutions instead of 8. Not to mention that levels on spins have led to skaters doing virtually the same spins over and over again. Bad Biellmans, slow...
    What if someone shows up with a double jump combination that is original shows off new connections* or transitions is well executed. I'd rather see an original double jump combination than a monstrosity of a triple-triple.
    Most of these skaters should be able to do a difficult transition out a double jump since they all do triples. Not all of them can execute a level one spin, as fast and as cool as Lambiel..
    Last edited by bek; 08-29-2011 at 08:15 PM.

  17. #37

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    There are probably more novices executing level 4 spins than triple jumps.

    Do you watch much skating besides the top 10 or so skaters in the world?

    There are a number of ways to add difficulty to spins. The ways that are easiest to earn levels get seen a lot at all levels of competition. Some are rare because they're hard to do well enough to get credit, or because they're not officially considered hard enough to earn credit.

    There are a number of ways to add difficulty to jumps. Adding a rotation in the air is the most obvious and the most clearly rewarded in the scale of values. Other ways will only be rewarded in GOE (which may not be worth much) or in the Transitions component.

    There is currently no official way to reward opposite-direction jumps or performing two rotations from takeoffs that are more difficult as singles than most standard takeoffs are as doubles (e.g., walley and inside axel) or harder-to-control landings (e.g., back inside or forward outside). Those have been much rarer than triple jumps because they're harder than triple jumps, in addition to not being officially rewarded. If we could build in a way to reward them, then they would become less rare because there would be an incentive to try them.

    Combining jumps with unusual takeoffs or landings in true jump combinations would be comparable to developing an unusual spin variation that doesn't necessarily earn a higher level. Some could be extremely creative, extremely difficult, and/or extremely well performed.

    Why do you want to support that kind of creativity for spins and want to make everybody try to aim for the "normal" expected jump content?

    Saying that a skater leaving out the triple salchow or triple loop should be penalized would be like saying that a man who doesn't do a level 4 deathdrop or a lady who doesn't do a level 4 layback including Biellmann should be penalized because those are now "normal" elements for their discipline.

    Why not try to reward skaters for 1) doing whatever they do best, and 2) showing as much variety of types of jumping and spinning skills as possible, even if that means including some unusual skills at the expense of leaving out usual ones.

    By the way, as far as ladies who are perfectly capable of executing five different triples choosing to leave one out, the easiest way to encourage them to try the one they're omitting would be to give them a little more time and allow them eight jump passes.

  18. #38

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    I would like to see a lack of musical expression to be a deal breaker. I know it's hard to make it objective because it cannot be measured. However, the way the COP is rewarding moves and levels right now, the skaters don't even need music to skate to. Just do the elements and get + GOEs. It could be a bigger part of PCS than it is now. The reason I say that is FS has been so closely related to the music that it is tough to separate the two, if you want a really great program.

  19. #39
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    I'd like to see basic skating : edges, speed, fluidity, centered and fast spins, steps with good edge quality... to be a deal breaker

  20. #40

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    I would like to see Olympic and World champions be able to demonstrate all of the major jumps: toe-loop (triple or quad), salchow (triple or quad), loop (triple or quad), flip (triple or quad), lutz (triple or quad), axel (double or triple) and at least one combo (3-3 or 4-3).

    Also good spins (including camel and sit positions) and actual choreography.

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