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  1. #21
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    You aren't going to like my opinions but that's never stopped me before so...

    A/A were way out of line in their comments to Mishka about his wife and child. They've probably damaged their friendship with him beyond repair. You just can't expect a friend to be okay with your open hostility towards his wife and child. He might be able to tolerate their dislike of his wife so long as they were polite to her. But to reject his son is to reject him in a way.

    Without ever having met Mishka, I'm willing to bet that being a father is a big part of his identity. Part of being a good father is sacrificing your own desires in order to give your children what they need. That Mishka, despite his misgivings, decided to man up and do it again at this stage in his life is to be applauded. A lesser man, a more selfish man, might have walked. So how did A/A respond to Mishka's sterling display of character? They whined that he couldn't come out and play. Hence his comment about their lack of support.

    I don't think A/A should have necessarily changed their vacation plans to include Mishkha's child. But telling his father they resented the boy's presence in his life was a big mistake. They'll need to get over that resentment if they want to retain Mishka's friendship. And for the record: I'm also in my 50s and childless by choice.
    Last edited by Civic; 08-29-2011 at 12:40 PM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinami Amori View Post
    Any opinions would be appreciated.
    Don't be friends with people who have children and marry Aeroflot flight attendants?

    Oh and everybody should organise their own holidays.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  3. #23
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    They should partially accept the child into their lives if they are to be friends with the parents.If someone wanted to be friends with me but not have anything to do with my children at all.No,we would not be friends.

    I see the point of the child free trip.If the parents want to go to Europe,let them take their child to Europe on their own separate trip.

    As to the comment"Who would want to go on a trip to Europe with a 3 yr old?" Just fyi it is entirely possible to travel with small children,even in Europe.If you have the ability to travel,it is a great learning experience for the children.My parents traveled with us in Europe when we were that age and it went just fine.(I was 3-5 and my brother was 8 mons-2)And I still have very vivid memories of the places we went(Austria etc...) My parents never let having kids keep them from going or doing anything.We went where they went,ate what they ate.When I was 1 my parents were bored and said "Hey let's go to Mexico" and they did.Keeping children only in places and situations that are child friendly,makes it to where a child has no idea how to behave or what to expect in an adult world.I myself have traveled with a small child.If the parent is the one in charge not the child,it's really not a terrible experience.I've been to Amsterdam,England and Wales with a 6 month old.My son being with me,did not inhibit my ability to enjoy my trip or anyone elses aside from a trip to Sainsbury's for baby food,formula and diapers and a stroller,we traveled at will.

  4. #24
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    I think that A&A had every right not to invite Misha/Katya with the child. I fully understand wanting to do a child free vacation. I have plenty of married friends, some of whom have kids, and I would not want to travel with them and the child, maybe if I had a kid it would be different, but regardless. So from that side, I fully get disinviting Misha and Katya or inviting them and them alone (sans kid).

    However, I think A&A were very out line in the way they talked to Misha. The man made his choices. He had a wife and raised a child with her and now he's gotten married and has another child (and really, no matter what everyone may think, if he really didn't want a kid, they wouldn't have one right now...), and that was his choice. Even if, at one point or another, he's said out loud to his friends that this may have been a mistake, it's not ok for htem to say it. Call it a double standard if you want, but it's kind of like me complaining about my mom. I can do it and find her annoying and overbearing at times and feel the need to let it out and complain, but the second anyone else says anything, my instinct is to protect her because at the end of the day, she's my mom! And in this case A&A went after Misha's family. Not ok. Furthermore, to say that they put their lives on hold while his kid grew up so they could travel together... First of all, I'm guessing they still traveled for those 18 years, just without Misha and his wife. And if they were waiting for the opportunity to travel with Misha, I understand, and it's unfortunate that he can't, but that's just it, he can't or doesn't want to leave the child with the grandparents. I'm not saying A&A should change the trip and have the kid come, but they had no right to act the way they did.

    You don't throw friend's choices in their faces. You don't remind them of the mistakes they've made. And you do accept them the way they are. It doesn't mean you have to take them and their kid on an adult only vacation, but you don't treat them the way A&A acted.

  5. #25

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    And in this case A&A went after Misha's family. Not ok. Furthermore, to say that they put their lives on hold while his kid grew up so they could travel together... First of all, I'm guessing they still traveled for those 18 years, just without Misha and his wife. And if they were waiting for the opportunity to travel with Misha, I understand, and it's unfortunate that he can't, but that's just it, he can't or doesn't want to leave the child with the grandparents. I'm not saying A&A should change the trip and have the kid come, but they had no right to act the way they did.

    You don't throw friend's choices in their faces. You don't remind them of the mistakes they've made. And you do accept them the way they are. It doesn't mean you have to take them and their kid on an adult only vacation, but you don't treat them the way A&A acted.
    Their whole we put our lives on hold was the most entitled thing I've ever read. Poor A/A didn't get to have the companion they wanted. Cue the violins. (Seriously!) They are acting like the man having kids is some kind of tragedy. When as I said before. While they might not want children for themselves. The survival of the human race depends on people having children. Children aren't a tragedy, by any means. Even if they circumstances they arrive in isn't ideal. And the circumstances Mischa's children arrived were a lot closer to the ideal. (Plenty of 53 year old men have kids).

    It may not be the lifestyle they would choose, and yes having kids can mean less freedom. But their benefits/joys to having a family too. Those children are a part of Mischa, and I have to wonder what Mischa's grown son thinks of them. How A/A treated him over the years.

    Real friends support their friends and don't like at their friends having a family as something "they have to patiently endure." What kind of friendship is that, certainly not the kind of friendship I would want. Its the type of friendship that suggests we are friends only if you fit completely into my lifestyle. Now A/A and Mischa may not be able to do all of the things that they once did together because he's a family man. But it really shouldn't stop a friendship. Real friendship is about more than vacations/shopping trips. Its about having people in your life you can count on to be with you when the chips are down. Its about having people you can confide in etc. And its also about encouraging your friends to be better people.

    A/A should be encouraging their friend to be a great father. They should be telling him how awesome it is that his son turned out to be an MIT graduate. Sounds like the first "super mom" did a pretty amazing job to me. They shouldn't be telling him how bad his choice was to be a father, and throwing it his face all the things he can't do. That 3 year old exists, and he needs a father. A man who wasn't willing to take responsibility and be a good father, is a man I wouldn't want as a friend.

    And here's something too. If you truly love someone, than if something or someone is important to them, its important to you. Even if I didn't "like my friends children" due to their behavior. The fact that they are my friends children, and I love my friends. Means that I would care about the child. Because its my friends child. It doesn't mean I'd be going to Europe with them.. but still.
    Last edited by bek; 08-29-2011 at 05:34 PM.

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    I am a late comer to this thread and have missed some of the earlier comments, so may be some of this has been expressed already.

    My perspective is that A&A knew that Mishka has a 3-year old, and the first question would have been- are you planning to leave the child with someone? The answer from M would have been a NO, so the two families need not have planned a trip together. I cannot imagine that parents would want to leave the child with someone other than say grand parents for that length of time (and a few may not even do that). I am surprised that A&A assumed the child would not be on that trip with them. It certainly changes the dynamics when there is a 3-year old with 4 adults on a trip, and sacrifices have to be made. If A&A are not ready for the sacrifices, they should have just planned a separate trip, from the very beginning. One cannot blame Mishka for loving his child and not wanting to leave him with someone while he himself is enjoying his trip. I don't think he would enjoy it, so he needs to have a different kind of vacation for his family.

  7. #27
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    Anya and Artur sound like selfish brats. Mishka is well rid of them - too bad it took him so long to figure it out.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Civic View Post
    You aren't going to like my opinions but that's never stopped me before so...

    A/A were way out of line in their comments to Mishka about his wife and child. They've probably damaged their friendship with him beyond repair. You just can't expect a friend to be okay with your open hostility towards his wife and child. He might be able to tolerate their dislike of his wife so long as they were polite to her. But to reject his son is to reject him in a way.

    Without ever having met Mishka, I'm willing to bet that being a father is a big part of his identity. Part of being a good father is sacrificing your own desires in order to give your children what they need. That Mishka, despite his misgivings, decided to man up and do it again at this stage in his life is to be applauded. A lesser man, a more selfish man, might have walked. So how did A/A respond to Mishka's sterling display of character? They whined that he couldn't come out and play. Hence his comment about their lack of support.

    I don't think A/A should have necessarily changed their vacation plans to include Mishkha's child. But telling his father they resented the boy's presence in his life was a big mistake. They'll need to get over that resentment if they want to retain Mishka's friendship. And for the record: I'm also in my 50s and childless by choice.
    Well you persuaded me: I was totally in A and A's corner and still would not want the child on the vacation but you aptly pointed out their rudeness to M about the choices he made in his life.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cachoo View Post
    Well you persuaded me: I was totally in A and A's corner and still would not want the child on the vacation but you aptly pointed out their rudeness to M about the choices he made in his life.
    Well exactly. My mom was telling me and she loves kids how she particuarly wouldn't want to go to Europe with a kid. But their attitude towards the kid is troubling. And also why isn't their a possible way to compromise on some kind of trip together. For example if for example Anya/Artur decide they want to spend a week in France. No reason Mischka, Katya, and the little boy couldn't meet them there. If M/K and the little boy stayed in a seperate residence, they wouldn't have to deal with the little boy that much. Mishka and Artur could maybe meet for golf. (If they golf) or they could meet for dinner, and everyone would do their own thing during the day. Of course its not the same as doing everything together on the trip. But they could still enjoy a bit of each other's company. They'd just have to agree to be more flexibile, and not do everything together.

    There are actually resorts that have child care for kids too. Parents after all need breaks from their kids too. And kids like getting to spend time with other kids. Now if A/A truly didn't want to do this thats totally fine, and I think Mishka should respect that. But there are ways to compromise and meet people half way. Expecting everyone else to completely change their trip is completely ridiculous on Kayta's part.
    Last edited by bek; 08-29-2011 at 07:08 PM.

  10. #30
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    My biggest "oh crap" was at this sentence: "Mishka is an orthodontist with his own practice, which is part of Artur’s extended dental services." Big personal fight, and how does this affect their professional relationship? If I were Artur, I'd be networking for replacement orthodontists, and come up with some thinking around how to deal with existing joint patients and referrals, since much of what an orthodontist does is long-term, and there will be disruption to existing patients.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    My perspective is that A&A knew that Mishka has a 3-year old, and the first question would have been- are you planning to leave the child with someone? The answer from M would have been a NO, so the two families need not have planned a trip together. I cannot imagine that parents would want to leave the child with someone other than say grand parents for that length of time (and a few may not even do that). I am surprised that A&A assumed the child would not be on that trip with them.
    I'm only surprised that A&A didn't assume the kid would be on the trip because that sounds like what Katya would insist upon. However, A&A had two decades of precedent for kids not being on the trips: they did not go while Miskha's first kid was growing up, and I'm guessing A&A assumed, wrongly, that the same conditions held.

    Katya and Mishka were asked to go on a trip where the decisions were already made. It was a binary question: come or not. Of course, K&M could have made a counteroffer -- would it be okay if we changed it in this and this way -- but it sounds like Katya invited herself and her kid to someone else's private cottage in her own version of the vacation. That's quite entitled, given that TA hasn't mentioned it is a given in this group.

    K&M's insistence that despite having made plans with other people, that A&A should drop them to accommodate K&M, either to include the kid or to break off into a separate vacation, is selfish shite.

    The mistake that A&A made, IMO, is to agree with Miskha's assessment about his life. It's like having a friend who comes over and after s/he's dumped his or her spouse or partner, and agreeing with all of the bad things s/he says about spouse/partner, because, inevitably, they will get back together and s/he will resent the hell out of you and/or tell spouse everything you said. Human nature, given what it is, makes Mishka's reaction quite expected, not necessarily right or A&A's directness wrong.

    Which goes to the root question about friendship: if you can't be honest with your friend in the first place, how close friends are you really? Maybe they were closer and direct when they were younger, or maybe they had a superficial guy friendship or maybe they had a close friendship over something in common that no longer applies, but did they have the kind of close and serious discussions throughout their friendship where both people can put their cards on the table? When Mishka married each spouse, did the type of friendship grow more hands off and distant? (TA's post reads like it did.) Just because Artur still had affection for Miskha, and they had a separate relationship in the office, doesn't mean that they were the type of friends where blanket acceptance should be expected.

    There's a huge difference between accepting what someone else does with their life and letting it interfere with your own. That's usually known as boundaries, and it seems like A&A have made their's clear. Plenty of people seem to accept friends they'd describe as close, while living vicariously through their or feeling superior because of their own life choices. (I'm not saying that's what Artur's been doing.) Other people have unrealistic ideas about long-term friendships or don't examine how they've changed over the years, especially when they're absorbed in their own families.

    Katya has pretty much put a line in the sand: personal over a professional relationship. She's asking Miskha to choose, just like she asked A&A to choose M&K&kid over the other friends. Even if she's the most self-absorbed cow on the planet, 1. She's Miskha's wife, at least for now, and 2. She must have gotten sick of not being accepted by the group. This might be her way to bail. It's certainly not a strategy to make friends and influence people.
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 08-29-2011 at 08:47 PM.
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  11. #31

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    Just because Artur still had affection for Miskha, and they had a separate relationship in the office, doesn't mean that they were the type of friends where blanket acceptance should be expected.
    In the post, TA said that Artur called Miskha his best and lifelong friend. If that's your best friend, yes acceptance should be expected. And once again, this is a child we are talking about, not a murder.

    Katya has pretty much put a line in the sand: personal over a professional relationship. She's asking Miskha to choose, just like she asked A&A to choose M&K&kid over the other friends. Even if she's the most self-absorbed cow on the planet, 1. She's Miskha's wife, at least for now, and 2. She must have gotten sick of not being accepted by the group. This might be her way to bail. It's certainly not a strategy to make friends and influence people.
    Where did Katya put a line in the sand. I thought it was ridiculous for her to suggest they all stay in the same cottage and change plans for her. But we absolutely don't know that she said, either go on vacation with us, or the friendship is done. And to be quite frank, given the attitudes presented in TA's post, I can't help wondering if Katya perhaps is all "I'm a mother" out of defense towards Anya and others attitudes towards her. It doesn't even seem like Kayta was there for that conversation.

    My biggest "oh crap" was at this sentence: "Mishka is an orthodontist with his own practice, which is part of Artur’s extended dental services." Big personal fight, and how does this affect their professional relationship? If I were Artur, I'd be networking for replacement orthodontists, and come up with some thinking around how to deal with existing joint patients and referrals, since much of what an orthodontist does is long-term, and there will be disruption to existing patients.
    I would like to think that after years of knowing each other. That they could both not "screw each other professionally" even if they have their disagreements.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    In the post, TA said that Artur called Miskha his best and lifelong friend. If that's your best friend, yes acceptance should be expected. And once again, this is a child we are talking about, not a murder.
    That's your definition. Artur had already made it clear for two decades, through Miskha's first child, that the boundaries of acceptance meant specifically that there would be no vacations with children. Artur did not volunteer that he agreed with Miskha about Miskha's mistakes until Mishka brought it up.


    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Where did Katya put a line in the sand. I thought it was ridiculous for her to suggest they all stay in the same cottage and change plans for her. But we absolutely don't know that she said, either go on vacation with us, or the friendship is done.
    By not either saying, "No thank you" or proposing an alternative or to sit down and to see if there was a possibility that would work for everyone, rather than insisting up on something else, when there was a professional, as well as personal relationship to consider.

    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    I would like to think that after years of knowing each other. That they could both not "screw each other professionally" even if they have their disagreements.
    They don't have to screw each other for it to be disruptive to their practices and their patients. Even if they stay together, it's easy for their employees and patients to feel a chill.
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    murder.

    That's your definition. Artur had already made it clear for two decades, through Miskha's first child, that the boundaries of acceptance meant specifically that there would be no vacations with children. Artur did not volunteer that he agreed with Miskha about Miskha's mistakes until Mishka brought it up.
    And I think most of us don't have issue with Artur not wanting to go on vacation with Miskha's children. And I thought Mishka was wrong to say if you won't go on vacation with us, we aren't true friends. But the fact that Mishka immediately said I'm sorry I ruined your life plans. Means there's something going on for awhile there. And Artur actually compared MIshka having a child, to a friend going to prison. Not the same thing.
    Last edited by bek; 08-29-2011 at 09:52 PM.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    By not either saying, "No thank you" or proposing an alternative or to sit down and to see if there was a possibility that would work for everyone, rather than insisting up on something else, when there was a professional, as well as personal relationship to consider.
    Did she insist or suggest? It's hard to say, IMO, based on what was said.

    My theory is that Katya wants to take the child so she has some congenial company and an excuse to get away from Mishka's friends. "Oh, Child has to nap now, but you go on without me." "Child and I are going to spend the day at the beach. You all just go ahead. We'll be fine."

    Not that I have ever used my children in this way or anything.

    But since I don't know any of these people, it's hard to say. I can't imagine that Katya finds them any more likable than they find her.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    They don't have to screw each other for it to be disruptive to their practices and their patients. Even if they stay together, it's easy for their employees and patients to feel a chill.
    Is there some indication in this story that their professional relationship is in danger or that they even work together? Tinami said that Mishka's practice was part of Artur's extended practice, but the practice is Mishka's own. The impression I have from that is that Mishka has his own office and staff, possibly in the same place, but not as a joint operation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    But since I don't know any of these people, it's hard to say. I can't imagine that Katya finds them any more likable than they find her.
    ITA with this. In which case Katya and Mishka's best response would have been: thanks for thinking of us, but no thanks. There's already a history of Miskha's first wife not wanting to leave their kid with grandparents, and agreeing to wait until the kid was grown up until traveling again, and Artur and Miskha's friendship was not affected by this, at least as far as we know.

    However, while I can't blame Katya for wanting to eat her cake and have it too, because there's something in it for her or she would have said no, but since A&A don't sound like doormats, nor people who would be willing to make plans with a group of people, invite others, and then let the others dictate the terms of the vacation, it wasn't a likely outcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Is there some indication in this story that their professional relationship is in danger or that they even work together? Tinami said that Mishka's practice was part of Artur's extended practice, but the practice is Mishka's own. The impression I have from that is that Mishka has his own office and staff, possibly in the same place, but not as a joint operation.
    It's possible that Artur just refers patients to Mishka off premises, but in many east coast practices I know, the orthodontist makes visits, at least in the early stages, to the dentist's office, and in any case there is substantial communication between the dentist and the affiliated orthodontist, periodontist, etc. about the plan for the patient. If I were in a cold or angry relationship with one of the other dental professionals, I would not be happy about maintaining that contact, and, depending on impact, to me, my staff, and my patients, I would contact the people in my back-up plan, because anyone with whom I had a business relationship could become ill, be hit by a bus, decide to move away, etc.
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    ITA with this. In which case Katya and Mishka's best response would have been: thanks for thinking of us, but no thanks. There's already a history of Miskha's first wife not wanting to leave their kid with grandparents, and agreeing to wait until the kid was grown up until traveling again, and that Artur and Miskha's friendship was not affected, at least as far as we know.
    But it seems to me that perhaps the friendship was affected. I mean words like "we patiently waited" for your other child to grow up. Says a lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    But it seems to me that perhaps the friendship was affected. I mean words like "we patiently waited" for your other child to grow up. Says a lot.
    Sure, it says they made a deal, the terms of the deal were completed, and Mishka changed the terms again. All kinds of deals, including marriages, get broken after two years, let alone two decades. It doesn't make it less frustrating, and the frustration could be at the change, not that A&A had decades of simmering resentment while Mishka's first child grew up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Sure, it says they made a deal, the terms of the deal were completed, and Mishka changed the terms again. All kinds of deals, including marriages, get broken after two years, let alone two decades. It doesn't make it less frustrating, and the frustration could be at the change, not that A&A had decades of simmering resentment while Mishka's first child grew up.
    It wouldnt' be their resentment but rather their attitudes towards his children. That Mishka might resent. He may be like how can you consider yourself to be my bestest friend ever but look at my own flesh and blood that way...I mean Artur once again compared Mishka having a child to Mishka committing a crime and going to prison.

    And really your friend has a kid, if you want to spend time with that friend you really do kind of work around it. Now an entire vacation, no, not necessarily but you work around it. I have a feeling Mishka's "blew up" was after years of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    It wouldnt' be their resentment but rather their attitudes towards his children. That Mishka might resent. He may be like how can you consider yourself to be my bestest friend ever but look at my own flesh and blood that way...I mean Artur once again compared Mishka having a child to Mishka committing a crime and going to prison.
    Why is Miskha in this friendship? If he has a problem with Artur's terms of friendship, which seem to have been quite clear and consistent for two decades, since he lived with it for two decades, he could always have said "no" or asked for what he wanted.

    Miskha might be connecting the two statements -- having a child and committing murder -- but committing murder was a response to Miskha having said that whatever he did should be acceptable. There are limits to acceptance, and again, there's a difference between acceptance, and accommodation or enabling behavior.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Why is Miskha in this friendship? If he has a problem with Artur's terms of friendship, which seem to have been quite clear and consistent for two decades, since he lived with it for two decades, he could always have said "no" or asked for what he wanted.
    Once again most of us don't have issues with Artur not wanting to go on vacation with Miskha. What people have issues with the words Artur used about Mishka's family. And it seems like from the statement Artur didn't say all he said before.

    And If I were Mishka, I wouldn't be. Perhaps Kayta too was more "your friends should accept your child" more than the other wife.

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