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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceIceBaby View Post
    I agree with you. I don't think Adelina had graceful arm moves or anything compared to an actual ballet dancer. Also I don't like when skaters try to copy ballet and even wear tutus! To interpretate ballet is very very difficult unless you have actually been practicing it for years and have the skills. Otherwise the program will look like a poor man's ballet. I don't understand why do they need to do these kind of ballet-on-ice type programs when they could be creating the choreography and costumes based on the beauty and art of skating.
    Maybe they think they can. But it's a mistake. They should be told that and their coach/choreographer should be aware that doing the ballerina request to be a ballerina. In no way it is possible to imitate a ballerina, you are or you're not. Not every skater is like Oksana Baiul. Even Sasha Cohen failed at doing the ballerina. Lucinda Ruh was much closer to look like a ballerina.
    If they still want to do a ballet program they should take the adaptation way, like Arakawa did with swan lake. She took another way of interpreting the ballet, adapted it to figure skating and moved like she could. She didn't pretend to look like a prima ballerina and it worked far more than those copies.

  2. #62
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    Fo Liza and Adelina I think they just need time. They are already ahead of Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen at the same age, and they can't focus on the same things at the same time. They are young and full of potential. Let them grow.

    Personnaly I have a preference for Liza. To me she looks like she has more dramatic potential and more charisma. Time will tell. Hopefully she will get good choreographies and she will avoid the Plush's sydrom (that is full of artistic potential, killed by ridiculous choreographies).

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by altai_rose View Post
    I agree with you that Adelina did not seem like a ballet dancer. However, I do have to defend her choice of music and program. Adelina's program is not going to look like ballet because she is not a ballet dancer. That's a fact. But skating to such a program will help her improve her line, help her pay attention to the music, work on her positions, etc. It's a good learning experience for her.
    And that's what Vodorezova said about Adelina's Swan Lake LP when she won Nationals at the age of 12. Coach and choreographer wanted Adelina to understand what's classic is about and to learn from that experience. And I think it worked. Of course she has her weaknesses, but first of all the girl is only 14, it was her first international season, and I think consistency, an ability to skate under the pressure and do her best when it counts are the most important things for her now

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Artifice View Post
    Fo Liza and Adelina I think they just need time. They are already ahead of Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen at the same age, and they can't focus on the same things at the same time. They are young and full of potential. Let them grow.

    Personnaly I have a preference for Liza. To me she looks like she has more dramatic potential and more charisma. Time will tell. Hopefully she will get good choreographies and she will avoid the Plush's sydrom (that is full of artistic potential, killed by ridiculous choreographies).
    They land 3-3 jumps but no way they are ahead of Michelle Kwan at that age, in terms of overll program/presenation.

    Michelle won her first world title at age 15 (Adelina's age?)- remember Salome'?

    At 14, she was 4th in the world- narrowly missing the bronze, only because she looked so young, and not like a 'lady'. So the following year she had a more mature costume, a bun to 'sell' the performance to the judges.

    Of course we don't know where Adelina and Liza would place if they were competing at senior worlds right now, since they are not age eligible. I still don't see them as better than Michelle at 15. Age 14 may have some valid arguments.

    Sasha at 15 was a pretty ballerina with flexibility, and she created beautiful pictures on the ice. She did have the ability to present and connect with the audience even then. She was obviously weaker than the Russian babies in jumps (though she did land 3-2-2 combinations regularly). I never saw her at 14.

    Funny how many posters put Michelle and Sasha in the same bracket, when Michelle was winning world titles at a young age, and Sasha never made it to the real top. I don't mean she is not a beautiful skater. I do like her skating, but I would not say she and Michelle could be considered nearly equal.

  5. #65
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    Vash01, I actually meant they are ahead technically. I forgot the word "technically".

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Artifice View Post
    Vash01, I actually meant they are ahead technically. I forgot the word "technically".
    OK. Thanks for explaining.

  7. #67
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    Well another example why today's juniors can not be compared artistically or otherwise to the stone ages of Michelle Kwan. They are not training to compete at senior level like Michelle did at the same age.
    In any case, it is just completely stupid to do, Michelle is Michelle. Adelina is Adelina. Why even compare? I just don't get it. If you want comparison, compare to the skaters she is competing with.

    With all due respect to Cohen, one thing she never had is competitive mindset which demonstarated by her title record on the World stage. Always crumbling under pressure and I pitied her fans those days. Both Adelina and Liza already achieved more than Sasha Cohen did at the same age competitively. Now go and "artist away", as much as you want.
    Last edited by millipied; 08-26-2011 at 06:48 PM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fashionista View Post
    When Kwan became the symbol of artistic skating? Did I miss something?
    Uh, well yeah, you must have missed something...quickly get thee to YouTube and educate thyself. Years 1996 thru about 2003 in ladies figure skating ought to do it...

    Quote Originally Posted by millipied View Post
    Believability of what exactly? I have seen all those skaters at those ages and I don't see how Adelina or Liza are less "believable" as a junior level skater than anyone you are going to bring up here.
    Not necessarily the junior level; it's more about the age. The point is though Liza T and Adelina are ahead of the pack when it comes to the technical part of the sport (specifically the jumps b/c their spins are super-weak compared to some of the other ladies), but they aren't wowing anyone with their presentation, interpretation, artistry...most of the categories in the PCS mark. That's not to say they won't, though.

    But for the sake of comparing, I highly doubt Adelina or Liza T could take a program like Salome, or any mature piece for that matter right now, and pull it off effectively ie. not look like a girl skating to some music but rather a character relating to and through the music...

    To clarify, if people don't get the significance of interpreting music or expression through movement, conveying a character and a mood, or other artsy stuff like that, then this discussion will probably go waay over their head...I'm just sayin'

  9. #69
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    What I don't understand is why there seems to be this huge demand that junior skaters should be this amazing artistic package before they've even skated senior internationally? They're junior skaters with some pretty phenomenal tech content and a ways to grow artistically which they will as the years prgress. They're exactly where they need to be at this stage of their careers. What's so wrong with that?

    Now if Adelina was skating this way aged 18-19 or Liza hadn't been rescued from the eville clutches of Mishin's totally shite choreography by Sochi, then I could understand the griping!!

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by floskate View Post
    What I don't understand is why there seems to be this huge demand that junior skaters should be this amazing artistic package before they've even skated senior internationally? They're junior skaters with some pretty phenomenal tech content and a ways to grow artistically which they will as the years prgress. They're exactly where they need to be at this stage of their careers. What's so wrong with that?

    Now if Adelina was skating this way aged 18-19 or Liza hadn't been rescued from the eville clutches of Mishin's totally shite choreography by Sochi, then I could understand the griping!!
    I agree with this (except for the Mishin comment, which is nasty, IMO for a coach with a long track of success). These girls are 14 and 15 and they are already being criticized for lacking artistry. Most successful skaters (e.g. Kristi Yamaguchi, Brian Boitano) were just jumpers before they developed a complete package, and they were much older (17-19) than these girls when they were just jumpers. Even Michelle at 13-14 was just a jumper. So all this criticism is way too early and therefore unfair, IMO.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artifice View Post
    Fo Liza and Adelina I think they just need time. They are already ahead of Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen at the same age, and they can't focus on the same things at the same time. They are young and full of potential. Let them grow.

    Personnaly I have a preference for Liza. To me she looks like she has more dramatic potential and more charisma. Time will tell. Hopefully she will get good choreographies and she will avoid the Plush's sydrom (that is full of artistic potential, killed by ridiculous choreographies).
    I disagree in part. Plushenko had some good choreographies in the past (1999, 2002 and 2004 lp's). So I don't think Mishin is completely unable to give some decent choreo to Liza. But I wonder how much time Adelina and Liza spend in ballet training, if they do it. I think Liza said in an interview some time ago there was no choreographers in Glazov help her in artistry.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daria View Post
    I disagree in part. Plushenko had some good choreographies in the past (1999, 2002 and 2004 lp's). So I don't think Mishin is completely unable to give some decent choreo to Liza. But I wonder how much time Adelina and Liza spend in ballet training, if they do it. I think Liza said in an interview some time ago there was no choreographers in Glazov help her in artistry.
    First of all, Mishin doesn't choreograph his skater's programs and never did. There are more than enough of choreographers in his group, like Kovtun who works with Liza. Sometimes Mishin can take some choreography/transitions off the program to make it more comfortable for a skater to land the jumps though.
    I don't know about Liza, but Adelina has ballet trainings and always had, I think her posture and lines prove that.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Autumn_girl View Post
    I don't know about Liza, but Adelina has ballet trainings and always had, I think her posture and lines prove that.
    Maybe, but her arms and carriage certainly don't.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Autumn_girl View Post
    First of all, Mishin doesn't choreograph his skater's programs and never did. There are more than enough of choreographers in his group, like Kovtun who works with Liza. Sometimes Mishin can take some choreography/transitions off the program to make it more comfortable for a skater to land the jumps though.
    I don't know about Liza, but Adelina has ballet trainings and always had, I think her posture and lines prove that.
    Autumn, thanks for the information.
    Last edited by Daria; 08-27-2011 at 07:39 PM.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Autumn_girl View Post
    First of all, Mishin doesn't choreograph his skater's programs and never did. There are more than enough of choreographers in his group, like Kovtun who works with Liza. Sometimes Mishin can take some choreography/transitions off the program to make it more comfortable for a skater to land the jumps though.
    I don't know about Liza, but Adelina has ballet trainings and always had, I think her posture and lines prove that.
    Fair enough I stand corrected, but if that's the case then Mishin needs to get a new crop of choreographers because the current output for his skaters is absolutely and has been for years.

    Vash, I would be the last person to diss Mishin the coach - I agree his results speak for themselves. However the packaging of his skaters is and has long been shocking and skaters of such talent and ability deserve sooooo much more. Nothing nasty about that at all.

  16. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by floskate View Post
    Fair enough I stand corrected, but if that's the case then Mishin needs to get a new crop of choreographers because the current output for his skaters is absolutely and has been for years.

    Vash, I would be the last person to diss Mishin the coach - I agree his results speak for themselves. However the packaging of his skaters is and has long been shocking and skaters of such talent and ability deserve sooooo much more. Nothing nasty about that at all. :)
    'Nasty' was probably a poor choice of word, on my part. Perhaps 'unfair' would have been better.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    'Nasty' was probably a poor choice of word, on my part. Perhaps 'unfair' would have been better.
    No I don't think so. So someone else 'choreographs' these so called programs for Mishin's skaters. He's still the head coach and ultimately responsible for what goes out onto the ice. How am I being unfair just because he teaches great technique and his skaters have been successful? IMO their programs on the whole are still dross and SHOULD be better!!

    ETA: Ok so I am dissing Mishin a little but on this point I think it's deserved.

  18. #78

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    I think different coaches have their strengths. Mishin's strength is teaching his students how to do the jumps well. Tarasova's strength is in bringing out their deep emotions. Tamara's strength is in getting her skaters ready for the competition, right at that moment ("hypnotizing them"). My point is that one person cannot do it all, and it takes a team to make the skaters and the coaches successful, so I am going by the track record of the coaches.

  19. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by floskate View Post
    What I don't understand is why there seems to be this huge demand that junior skaters should be this amazing artistic package before they've even skated senior internationally? They're junior skaters with some pretty phenomenal tech content and a ways to grow artistically which they will as the years prgress. They're exactly where they need to be at this stage of their careers. What's so wrong with that?

    Now if Adelina was skating this way aged 18-19 or Liza hadn't been rescued from the eville clutches of Mishin's totally shite choreography by Sochi, then I could understand the griping!!
    Voice of reason as per usual.
    Adelina Sotnikova is the 2014 Olympic champion!

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by floskate View Post
    What I don't understand is why there seems to be this huge demand that junior skaters should be this amazing artistic package before they've even skated senior internationally? They're junior skaters with some pretty phenomenal tech content and a ways to grow artistically which they will as the years prgress. They're exactly where they need to be at this stage of their careers. What's so wrong with that?
    I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here but this post made me think... I guess the reason that people expect amazing artistic packages from these girls is because they believe skaters like Baiul and Kwan exhibited great artistry at a similar age (not sure if you agree). They already had international senior experience though, because the rules were different. So did they exhibit artistry because of something innate that they had, or because of experience skating in seniors? In Kwan's case I guess I would chock it up to experience, since she revamped her style significantly after 95 Worlds. In Baiul's case it's impossible to tell, since there are no videos of her prior to that 1992-1993 season, afaik.

    The reason I find it interesting is that the reason for the age cutoffs for senior Worlds/Olympics is supposed to be to save their young bodies from the technical demands of the senior circuit (though some think the true reason is to keep young girls from winning everything and then retiring so the ISU can benefit from ticket sales). As you point out though, being in juniors has not stopped Adelina and Liza from having amazing technical content. So ironically, keeping them out of seniors did not have the intended effect, but may have stunted their artistic growth. Makes one wonder if the rule is even worth it.

    I also think it's really dumb that Adelina will be eligible to skate with seniors in the Grand Prix in fall of 2011, but not mature enough to skate with seniors at Euros/Worlds until Spring 2013. It would actually make more sense if ISU flipped it and let them do senior champions before the GP.

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