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  1. #61
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    They are the most beautiful pair on ice since B/S retired. I want them to win.

  2. #62

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    I don't see V/T as 'beautiful', but strong, with potential to be great.

    I think B&S were the most beautiful pair to ever grace the ice. G&G and M&D had their beauty too, but B&S were exquisite with their lines and lyrical expression. However, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so feel free to disagree with me.

  3. #63
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    I love them. And think they have all they need except perhaps time but I think by Sochi they should be fine. I don't remember being this excited about a pair in a while. I think they have power as well as refinement and they seem to have a great connection too

    I have to admit while I do know that S/S are technically brilliant, I haven't been thrilled with a lot of their programs of late. I absolutely hated the Pink Panther and really thought it was beneath them and a bit juvenile. Though I did like Out of Africa. Personally my issue with them are some of their lift positions which I find awkward and sometimes downright ugly. I also feel a lack of connection sometimes between them. But like the previous poster said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

    I loved the lyrical expression from B/S but I sometimes found her lines lacking especially in her transitional skating.

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by chantilly View Post
    .

    I loved the lyrical expression from B/S but I sometimes found her lines lacking especially in her transitional skating.


    In terms of lines and positions, Berezhnaya is/was probably the strongest since Gordeeva; Knees extended, toes pointed, legs always above the hips during arabesque positions, nice dance lift positions. Even her spread eagles and Inas were absolutely gorgeous.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by escaflowne9282 View Post


    In terms of lines and positions, Berezhnaya is/was probably the strongest since Gordeeva; Knees extended, toes pointed, legs always above the hips during arabesque positions, nice dance lift positions. Even her spread eagles and Inas were absolutely gorgeous.
    I actually have to say I don't think Berezhnaya's overall positions were always that good. I've seen her not point her toe when she does a sit spin in the pair combination spin, especially in the Lady Caliph program. Everyone has said Berezhnaya is near perfect in this sense, but I didn't exactly see it.

  6. #66
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    I thought S/S's Pink Panther wasn't that great either. The program had a lot of clever choreography, but it seemed overly prepared and too busy. There was polish, but not a sense of command or power - the sum of the parts was much greater than the whole. That's what I tend to notice with CoP programs in general. P/T's long program wasn't particulary impressive either - I still think their best FP was Paganini back in 2004.

    This season didn't feature that much quality pair skating. If any team was robbed in PCS, it was K/S. They definitely deserved higher PCS than V/T.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    I think B&S were the most beautiful pair to ever grace the ice.
    I agree entirely. The most beautiful and the most underappreciated pair ever.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by shady82 View Post
    I actually have to say I don't think Berezhnaya's overall positions were always that good. I've seen her not point her toe when she does a sit spin in the pair combination spin, especially in the Lady Caliph program. Everyone has said Berezhnaya is near perfect in this sense, but I didn't exactly see it.
    But they both used broken lines in the first position of their pairs spin in the Lady Caliph and then reverted to classic positions in the second half of the spin .This was typically how their pairs spins were choregraphed .

    In any case, who would you consider to have stronger line among female pairs skaters?

    Re:judgejudy, I loved B&S, but for me the most underappreciated would have to go to V&V. They have the same Olympic medal count as both B&S and M&D. Were IMHO considerably more entertaining than T&M. Have one more world title than all three , yet they rarely ever seem to be discussed or remembered as anything other than the Russian pair who won in-between Rodnina and G&G.
    Last edited by escaflowne9282; 08-20-2011 at 08:37 AM.

  9. #69
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    I agree Valova & Vasiliev are hugely underrated and underappreciated.

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by chantilly View Post

    I loved the lyrical expression from B/S but I sometimes found her lines lacking especially in her transitional skating.
    I have never heard of Elena Berezhnaya lacking in lines! She has some of the most beautiful lines even in very difficult positions.

    There are skaters with better posture than her, but hers was very good too, particularly during the lifts.
    Last edited by Vash01; 08-20-2011 at 06:02 PM.

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by escaflowne9282 View Post
    Re:judgejudy, I loved B&S, but for me the most underappreciated would have to go to V&V. They have the same Olympic medal count as both B&S and M&D. Were IMHO considerably more entertaining than T&M. Have one more world title than all three , yet they rarely ever seem to be discussed or remembered as anything other than the Russian pair who won in-between Rodnina and G&G.
    I agree about V&V. There was a thread about this a while back. I think politics may have played a role. First, they were ignored because Underhill-Martini were seen as future champions (U&M were always considered huge favorites in pro skating). Later, young G&G burst on to the scene and the Russian fed seemed to push them up. It did not help that Valova made some mistakes and G&G were usually perfect, but V&V had more maturity at that point. Their 1988 worlds LP is one of my favorite programs. They were landing sbs triples and two triple throws in an era when no one else was doing it. They had innovative choreography (thanks to Tamara) while most other pairs were doing traditional pairs skating. V&V were not 'beautiful' like G&G, B&S and M&D, and that may have hurt them. T&M were not 'beautiful' but they may have benefitted from the rules changes to COP, and their huge consistency. I think V&T will benefit too if they maintain the consistency, while improving their artistry/presentation.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    I have never heard of Elena Berezhnaya lacking in lines! She has some of the most beautiful lines even in very difficult positions.

    There are skaters with better posture than her, but hers was very good too, particularly during the lifts.
    I said in her transitional skating which was in between the elements where she had yes also bad posture. And just because you haven't heard it before doesn't mean it isn't true. I personally though she was a little awkward at times. He was always magnificent.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by escaflowne9282 View Post
    But they both used broken lines in the first position of their pairs spin in the Lady Caliph and then reverted to classic positions in the second half of the spin .This was typically how their pairs spins were choregraphed .

    In any case, who would you consider to have stronger line among female pairs skaters?
    In the pairs' spin, there was the position where Anton did a camel while Elena did a sit spin below him, and I often saw a glaring lack of a pointed toe while she was in this position. This happened more in Lady Caliph than in other programs. When I think of female pairs skaters with stronger lines, Tatiana Totmianina comes to mind, though I definitely prefer Elena's presentation style.

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by shady82 View Post
    In the pairs' spin, there was the position where Anton did a camel while Elena did a sit spin below him, and I often saw a glaring lack of a pointed toe while she was in this position. This happened more in Lady Caliph than in other programs. When I think of female pairs skaters with stronger lines, Tatiana Totmianina comes to mind, though I definitely prefer Elena's presentation style.
    Good greif, I always felt Totmianina's lines were nothing to write home about at all , her spirals rarely had pointed toes, and her lifts were typically flat footed especially in the early part of her career 2001-2004.

  15. #75
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    Well, if not Totmianina, then who of the 2002-2006 pairs skaters had good posture I wonder? The 3 Chinese who varied: from decent – the improved S/Z, to mediocre – Z/Z, to plain ugly – P/T (which did not prevent them for nearly winning the OG)? Or any of the US-Canadian?
    I always found T/M the most beautiful and elegant couple of their quadrennial, with long legs, wonderful positions and classical skating. Probably Petrova, Obertas, or some other less decorated Russian pairs skaters could be on par with Tatiana back in 2002-2006, but for me they lost in overall comparison, due to Tatiana’s height, long legs, arms, and physique which was far more elegant than of the majority of pairs skaters of her time.
    Back in 2000, 2001, m.b. in 2002 they still had to work on many things, but even that time she was far better and carried herself more beautiful on ice than most of the skaters (no matter how cold, unemotional, blah.. T/M were leaving everyone).
    Surely Tatiana and Elena B. were not ideal in each and every aspect but saying that they did not have one of the best postures and lines at least in their prime years – is weird.
    Last edited by pumba; 08-22-2011 at 12:08 PM.

  16. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by pumba View Post
    Well, if not Totmianina, then who of the 2002-2006 pairs skaters had good posture I wonder? The 3 Chinese who varied: from decent – the improved S/Z, to mediocre – Z/Z, to plain ugly – P/T (which did not prevent them for nearly winning the OG)? Or any of the US-Canadian?
    I always found T/M the most beautiful and elegant couple of their quadrennial, with long legs, wonderful positions and classical skating. Probably Petrova, Obertas, or some other less decorated Russian pairs skaters could be on par with Tatiana back in 2002-2006, but for me they lost in overall comparison, due to Tatiana’s height, long legs, arms, and physique which was far more elegant than of the majority of pairs skaters of her time.
    Back in 2000, 2001, m.b. in 2002 they still had to work on many things, but even that time she was far better and carried herself more beautiful on ice than most of the skaters (no matter how cold, unemotional, blah.. T/M were leaving everyone).
    Surely Tatiana and Elena B. were not ideal in each and every aspect but saying that they did not have one of the best postures and lines at least in their prime years – is weird.
    I agree with most of this. Tatiana had really good posture and lines. I noticed it at the 2001 worlds. Their choreography those days did not use it to their advantage, except in their SPs. After 2002, Obertas seemed to have it all, including lines, posture, Elena-like speed, but she lacked the mental aspect. Her posture was better than Totmianina's, but not on the throws. Like you mentioned, I liked Tatiana's long lines. Petrova has a good back, but she throws her head just a bit too far back. Other than that, I liked her posture, particularly on the landings of throws. Tatiana had wonderful landing positions, leg extensions, and her edge was unbelivably solid. I could never understand why T&M were disliked so much. As you said, no one is perfect; they all have their strong points and a few weaknesses. The Chinese pairs have terrible positions (and I am going to add S&P to that list) particularly on the lifts, but they don't get criticized for their flaws the way Elena (in particulary) and Tatiana are being nitpicked for every little weakness.

  17. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    I agree with most of this. Tatiana had really good posture and lines. I noticed it at the 2001 worlds. Their choreography those days did not use it to their advantage, except in their SPs. After 2002, Obertas seemed to have it all, including lines, posture, Elena-like speed, but she lacked the mental aspect. Her posture was better than Totmianina's, but not on the throws. Like you mentioned, I liked Tatiana's long lines. Petrova has a good back, but she throws her head just a bit too far back. Other than that, I liked her posture, particularly on the landings of throws. Tatiana had wonderful landing positions, leg extensions, and her edge was unbelivably solid. I could never understand why T&M were disliked so much. As you said, no one is perfect; they all have their strong points and a few weaknesses. The Chinese pairs have terrible positions (and I am going to add S&P to that list) particularly on the lifts, but they don't get criticized for their flaws the way Elena (in particulary) and Tatiana are being nitpicked for every little weakness.
    ITA that the Chinese pairs had/have terrible positions and I've always said that despite liking their charisma, S&P's general composition in movement, their line, carriage, and posture, left a lot to be desired.Pelletier was a great jump and lift technician, but that "posture" .
    Of 2002-2006, Totmianina was easily the strongest in overall composition, as was Berezhnaya from 1998-2002. Nitpicking between the two, I was surprised at shady82's assertion that Totmianina's line was stronger while saying Berezhnaya lacked toepoint at certain instances. Between the two ,I always thought that Tomianina's toepoint was the one that needed more work
    Last edited by escaflowne9282; 08-22-2011 at 09:24 PM.

  18. #78
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    The way Totmianina used to land from the throw jumps were always text book and than some more. But everyone hated her for her peculiar cold and distant presentation style especially when they kept beating the internet sweethearts- S/Z.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by chantilly View Post
    I said in her transitional skating which was in between the elements where she had yes also bad posture. And just because you haven't heard it before doesn't mean it isn't true. I personally though she was a little awkward at times. He was always magnificent.
    ITA, especially about Anton being magnificent. The problem B/S seemed to have sometimes was with consistency. Seemingly, nerves often caused them to make mistakes in big moment (e.g., 1998 Olympics sp, which the judges still marked them over Ina & Zimmerman, who performed better in sp that year). In professional ranks, I don't think B/S were ever as inspired as S/P.

  20. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    ITA, especially about Anton being magnificent. The problem B/S seemed to have sometimes was with consistency. Seemingly, nerves often caused them to make mistakes in big moment (e.g., 1998 Olympics sp, which the judges still marked them over Ina & Zimmerman, who performed better in sp that year). In professional ranks, I don't think B/S were ever as inspired as S/P.
    How can they feel inspired where they were treated like second rate skaters who did not really win the OGM? They were magnificent in Russia, I am sure. I have watched some of their videos from Russia and it was nice to see them getting the huge ovation they deserved.

    About their 1998 SP, inspite of the fall, rest of their program was in a class of their own. Ina-Dungjen could not come close. I agree that I&D's marks were all over the place, but B&S did get low technical marks (5.4's) in their SP. They fully deserved the artistic marks. No other pair came close in fluid movement, speed, lines, unison, height of their split double twist.
    Last edited by Vash01; 08-25-2011 at 03:23 AM.

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