View Poll Results: Will the newbies have the poise as well as the triples to take on the veterans?

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  • Yes

    34 61.82%
  • No

    8 14.55%
  • Too early to tell

    13 23.64%
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  1. #1

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    Will the newbies have the poise as well as the triples to take on the veterans?

    Interesting article from Alexa Ainsworth in Universal Sports:-

    http://www.universalsports.com/news-...id=548283.html

    According to Ainsworth, the problem with the forthcoming season in the ladies is that "the newbies with the triple-triple combinations lack the maturity of the veterans - who lack the triple-triple. We are having a difficult time thinking of a skater who has the poise and presence of a senior lady and can throw down an effortless triple Lutz-triple toe." However, I don't think that this is necessarily the case. This view is based on last year's junior performances and Sotnikova's and Tuktamysheva's performances certainly did not lack 'poise'. Moreover, both Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva will be a year older and that extra year will bring additional poise and maturity to their skating. I think therefore that the suggestion that there programs during the coming season will lack poise and maturity is a bit premature.
    Last edited by Maofan7; 08-13-2011 at 03:32 AM.

  2. #2

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    The Russian (girls) Ladies have it all - It will be a fun season to watch!

  3. #3
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    I expect Tuk and Sot to be inconsistent during the GPs, meaning that they will be excellent in some performances, and disappointing in others. However, I expect both of them to make the finals and at least one of them to pull it together to win the gold.

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    The womens field is terrible now. The World title was won by an early 80s caliber gold medal performance, the Olympic Champion skated at 45% of her Olympic and previous years caliber and still very nearly won the World title, and skaters were fighting for the bronze with performances that would barely have them fighting for top 10 most years. Of course the new ones will do very well against this sad crop, especialy with Kim and Ando not even doing the Grand Prix (and who knows when if ever returning), whether they are kitchen soup or not.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    The womens field is terrible now. The World title was won by an early 80s caliber gold medal performance, the Olympic Champion skated at 45% of her Olympic and previous years caliber and still very nearly won the World title, and skaters were fighting for the bronze with performances that would barely have them fighting for top 10 most years. Of course the new ones will do very well against this sad crop, especialy with Kim and Ando not even doing the Grand Prix (and who knows when if ever returning), whether they are kitchen soup or not.
    I think you're exaggerating. Ando's performance was far from "early 80's caliber". Those spins, two triple lutzes etc. And performances of skaters' who were fighting for the bronze certainly wouldn't "barely" have them fighting for top 10 most years. Kostner's and Czisny's skates would make top 10 in most Worlds in history.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    The womens field is terrible now. The World title was won by an early 80s caliber gold medal performance, the Olympic Champion skated at 45% of her Olympic and previous years caliber and still very nearly won the World title, and skaters were fighting for the bronze with performances that would barely have them fighting for top 10 most years. Of course the new ones will do very well against this sad crop, especialy with Kim and Ando not even doing the Grand Prix (and who knows when if ever returning), whether they are kitchen soup or not.
    You're insane. Leonova's performanes would have had her in the top 5 every year I can think of. She would have won in '06. Alissa would have also been comfortably in the Top 10 in previous years, and Murakami.

  7. #7

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    I remember Sot at Sheffield JGP, I have not seen skating like that in YEARS!!! Don't count the 2 young ones out at all. It will be a pleaseure to watch them.

  8. #8
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    mao's performance was also very good despite her mistakes i found her programs at worlds to be one off the most enjoyable,and if she shows up in good condition soon, which i assume she will, i don't see anything or anyone stopping her from winning. since the only thing that has held Mao back the previous season is all the challenges she had taken at the same time..

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    You're insane. Leonova's performanes would have had her in the top 5 every year I can think of. She would have won in '06. Alissa would have also been comfortably in the Top 10 in previous years, and Murakami.
    Leonova from Worlds would have beaten Meissner with a flawless skate with 2 triple-triples, 7 triples, and high PCS at the 2006 Worlds. Thanks for the laughs on that one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    I think you're exaggerating. Ando's performance was far from "early 80's caliber". Those spins, two triple lutzes etc.
    Those spins you say. You are right, it is disrespectful to the early 80s ladies and Ando in the same sentence if we are talking about spins. Imagine comparing Ando and her slow croakey spins and novice layback to the spins of Biellmann, Zayak, and Kay Thomson.

  11. #11

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    JudgeJudy, Mao is far from finished. One bad season does not 'finish' a skater. Many successful skaters have had a bad season that they bounced back from. Irina Slutskaya bounced back twice. Michelle bounced back from a poor (by her standards) 1997 season. There are other examples.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Leonova from Worlds would have beaten Meissner with a flawless skate with 2 triple-triples, 7 triples, and high PCS at the 2006 Worlds. Thanks for the laughs on that one.
    I can't see Leonova beating Meissner either, though it's worth noting that Leonova's SP + a passable spiral sequence would've been the only clean short with three triples in the competition (3T3T and 3Z; the easiest 3-3, but still something). Gedevanishvili and Korpi were the others to go for three triples in the short, neither cleanly (and the latter fell). Assuming a near tie in qualifiying, good momentum from the short, and the same FS with ca. 2006 COP scoring and one more spin, it might've been close between Meissner and Leonova. Finally, Meissner might have scored a point or two less than that which she gained by giving the only "champion's performance" of the night. She went from having no PCS averages in the mid-sevens in the SP to having all but one of them at that level in the FS.

    Well, that was "fun".
    I can call the moon a pear, but it doesn't make it so. -- kwanfan1818

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Leonova from Worlds would have beaten Meissner with a flawless skate with 2 triple-triples, 7 triples, and high PCS at the 2006 Worlds. Thanks for the laughs on that one.
    In 2006 no, but how many Meissner's triples would've been ratified in 2011?..

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Leonova from Worlds would have beaten Meissner with a flawless skate with 2 triple-triples, 7 triples, and high PCS at the 2006 Worlds. Thanks for the laughs on that one.
    Flawless? I love Kimmie dearly, but I know that only 5 of those 7 triples would have counted now-a-days. Alena did 6 clean ones. Don't get me started on spins and steps! Leonova also didn't benefit from having a spiral sequence (more points) in either program. Leonova's SP in 2011 was also superior to Kimmie's in 2006. And as brought up by another poster, Kimmie was the beneficiary of very high PCS because of a stunning skate on a night of pretty mediocre performances. She never received such high PCS again, nor did she deserve it.

    I have to admit I laugh time and time again when I see yet another trash can thread started by you. So, I guess I can say "Thanks for the laughs," too!
    Last edited by Jenna; 08-14-2011 at 04:49 AM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    The womens field is terrible now. The World title was won by an early 80s caliber gold medal performance, the Olympic Champion skated at 45% of her Olympic and previous years caliber and still very nearly won the World title, and skaters were fighting for the bronze with performances that would barely have them fighting for top 10 most years. Of course the new ones will do very well against this sad crop, especialy with Kim and Ando not even doing the Grand Prix (and who knows when if ever returning), whether they are kitchen soup or not.
    A little harsh, but I do get what you are saying. No one really skated like they WANTED to win the World title, that's what I found the most frustrating. All week I saw footage of Miki practicing sick 3lz-3lo, 3s-3lo combos and reeling off 2a-3t like it was nothing, but she didn't go for any of those combos in the actual event and was still able to win. Ditto for Kostner and the Witt-content program that earned her bronze.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    Flawless? I love Kimmie dearly, but I know that only 5 of those 7 triples would have counted now-a-days. Alena did 6 clean ones. Don't get me started on spins and steps! Leonova also didn't benefit from having a spiral sequence (more points) in either program. Leonova's SP in 2011 was also superior to Kimmie's in 2006. And as brought up by another poster, Kimmie was the beneficiary of very high PCS because of a stunning skate on a night of pretty mediocre performances. She never received such high PCS again, nor did she deserve it.

    I have to admit I laugh time and time again when I see yet another trash can thread started by you. So, I guess I can say "Thanks for the laughs," too!
    Whatever, if you really think Leonova would have beaten Meissner at the 2006 Worlds you are smoking some pretty good crack. I dont even know why you are bother talking about scoring changes since nobody is going to compare scores from 2006 to 2011 anyway. If you want to bring scoring into it though, scoring in general is far elevated as time goes on across all disciplines, so the fact Meissner scored so much higher at the 2006 Worlds vs Leonova at the Moscow Worlds, when comparable performances per discipline are usual about 20 points higher than back then, already says enough.

    Your point on PCS is also completely false. Meissner received very high PCS internationally the next 2 seasons until after her meltdown at the 08 Nationals which forever dropped her rep. Only Kim and Asada regularly received higher PCS, and actually just barely most of the time, and in fact on occasion Asada was lower. Even Ando received lower PCS than Meissner in the majority of head to head programs those almost 2 seasons, the season of Ando's first World title and as her being reigning World Champion. Even with flawed performances Meissner was receiving high PCS in the coming seasons, most times on par with the low to mid 7s she received at the 2006 Worlds (which back then was very high). Also far more likely Leonova will never again reach the PCS she did at the Moscow Worlds anywhere else, as it was generally felt she got a home court boost, and her PCS are always much lower than they were there.

    Meissner in her relatively short prime received much higher PCS amongst the top women than Leonova ever did.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I dont even know why you are bother talking about scoring changes since nobody is going to compare scores from 2006 to 2011 anyway.
    But isn't that what you were doing by stating that "performances fighting for the bronze this year would bearly have made the top 10 in previous years?" I was responding to you, my dear.

    If you want to bring scoring into it though, scoring in general is far elevated as time goes on across all disciplines, so the fact Meissner scored so much higher at the 2006 Worlds vs Leonova at the Moscow Worlds, when comparable performances per discipline are usual about 20 points higher than back then, already says enough.
    That's so false, it's hilarious. Over time, elements have been removed from both the SP and FS, which means that scores, on average, are much lower than they would have been before 2011. Perfect example: Carolina Kostner skated a clean SP in the 2010-2011 GPF, and scored 62.13. Carolina Kostner skated a clean SP in the 2010 Euro. Champs, but with a lower base value on jumps. She scored 65.80 points there. In case you were wondering, her PCS was higher at this year's final. Why? In 2010, the spiral sequence added points to her SP score. This argument makes zero sense.

    Your point on PCS is also completely false. Meissner received very high PCS internationally the next 2 seasons
    You didn't pay attention to my wording. I didn't say she didn't get relatively high PCS in the future, I said she never got PCS as high ever again. Kindly direct me to the next time her PCS in an ISU sanctioned event was 60+, and I will shut up.

    By the way that comment about me smoking crack, totally classy. You truly are the definition of a classless and illogical person, judgejudy27. Your user name is an insult to the outrageous, yet highly intelligent real life figure. You might want to consider changing it to something like "tonyaharding94." It might more accurately represent your demeanor.
    Last edited by Jenna; 08-14-2011 at 05:41 AM.

  18. #18

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  19. #19

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    Don't know what to make of this:-

    http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-b...0110810it.html

    Hope Mao is simply having a rest and getting herself properly prepared for the grand prix. She needs to have a better season this year to get herself back on track.

  20. #20
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    Jenna, I do think that the scoring, in general, does increase as well, mainly because judges are getting more comfortable using the higher scores in PCS. It's no surprise that the first ten given by a judge came in the Olympic season, and that skaters are seeing multiple tens by Worlds.

    Not sure who would've won in a head to head match, though. I know I don't care all that much, since the initial point that judgejudy was making - that the quality of skating in 2011 was quite low - stands regardless (as it was at the 2006 worlds for the ladies) of the presume victor of this hypothetical.

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