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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by RD View Post
    I dunno, for some reason I always found Cohen to be overrated.

    She had some fire and spark when she was younger but that disappeared and she always seemed tentative and timid. Sort of like how Nagasu is now.
    I find her overrated also, but "tentative" is not a word I would use to describe Ms. Cohen! Just looking at kwanatic's data and seeing that she never popped a jump at nationals, olympics, or worlds is a testament to how aggressive she was.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by RD View Post
    Well, Nagasu is that way when she skates not to lose. She CAN be a great skater as we saw at 2010 Nats and Olys. Too bad she has not risen to that level of competitiveness since...
    I thought Mirai was exceptional in her 2011 Nationals SP and her 2011 4CC FS. Put those two performances together and you have a world medalist. Or in this year's case, a world champion.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    Sasha actually had a spectacular win with this program at Marshall's 2004. She got a couple of 6's for presentation and beat world champion Shizuka (it was one month after 2004 Worlds) even though she ladned a triple-triple. Michelle made many mistakes in her routine to Tosca and finished third. It was really an interesting competition. Miki Ando was there as well and landed two triple-triples and had a brave attempt at her quad salchow (she had clean landing but three quarters of a cheat on it).
    Now this makes more sense. I see now that there were two Marshalls events for 2004 - the World Cup of Figure Skating where 1st - Irina, 2nd - Kwan, 3rd - Cohen. Then the World Skating Challenge where Sasha won. Confusing!

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    Well, but this included only Nats, Worlds and Olys. Sasha had three clean FS's in her life: Worlds 2003 and 2004 QR's and Marshall's Challenge 2004. All were spectacular. Sasha really could be totally amazing and probably the best skater if she only could land all her jumps. With her line, posture, perfect positions, spirals, spins, wonderful artistry and grace... Scott Hamilton once said during Olympic Ice that Sasha is one of the most beautiful skaters to ever grace the ice. In case of popping, I like it more when a skater try to do all rotations like Sasha than pop a jump. The only time I remember Sasha popping a jump was Campbell's 2004 when she popped triple loop into a single.
    I remembered that popped jump. I always found it strange that she never bailed out of a jump. Most skaters say you know from the moment you take off whether or not you're going to land. I often wonder whether or not Sasha's scores might have been better if popped a jump rather than falling. Back then deductions for falls were pretty steep, not to mention the impression it leaves on a program. I always felt it was better to stay on your feet than your ass...I admired her commitment to doing the jumps, but I wonder if that was always wise...

    Sasha should have been a national and world champion several times over; she just couldn't ever put it on the line when it counted. So many times she had a gold medal on a platter in front of her, and damn near every time she tripped and knocked it over. I found her to be ridiculously exasperating to cheer for. I just couldn't do it. I feel/felt the same way about Alissa's skating--super gorgeous skater who just couldn't pull it together. Alissa's made changes in the last year, but we'll have to see if they stick.

    I wouldn't compare Mirai to Sasha just yet, though she does appear to be heading in that direction. Mirai still has time to turn herself around...Sasha never managed to do that...

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    Now this makes more sense. I see now that there were two Marshalls events for 2004 - the World Cup of Figure Skating where 1st - Irina, 2nd - Kwan, 3rd - Cohen. Then the World Skating Challenge where Sasha won. Confusing!
    While doing all triple-triples videos I learnd about all those events for TV. Campbell's International Figure Skating Challange always opened the season and Marshall's World Skating Challenge was always after Worlds ending the season. There were four Campbell's from 2002 to 2004. Marshall's was held from 2004 to 2005. Sometimes there were also another events. In December of 2004 there was Marshall's World Cup won by Irina with great 6 triples programs. Sasha had there probably her worst FS ever with 3 or 4 falls, don't remember exactly. Sasha won Marshall's World Skating Challenge 2004 which ended season 2003-2004. She also won season opening Campbells this season. At the end of 2002-2003 season, after Michelle won her last Worlds there was ABC International Skating Challenge. Event with exactly the same name was also held in December of 2003, which was quite confusing for me when I was making Sasha video. After Campbell's 2002 there was also Crest Whitestripes International Skating Challenge won by Sasha with spectacular Rachmaninoff program, seven triples and only one mistake at 3Lz+3T. She landed there also gorgeous 3T+half loop+3S. Oh, and there was also Campbell's Cup at the biginning of 2006-2007 season with match-up between Kimmie Meissner and Mao Asada. Sorry for the big OT.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    While doing all triple-triples videos I learnd about all those events for TV. Campbell's International Figure Skating Challange always opened the season and Marshall's World Skating Challenge was always after Worlds ending the season. There were four Campbell's from 2002 to 2004. Marshall's was held from 2004 to 2005. Sometimes there were also another events. In December of 2004 there was Marshall's World Cup won by Irina with great 6 triples programs. Sasha had there probably her worst FS ever with 3 or 4 falls, don't remember exactly. Sasha won Marshall's World Skating Challenge 2004 which ended season 2003-2004. She also won season opening Campbells this season. At the end of 2002-2003 season, after Michelle won her last Worlds there was ABC International Skating Challenge. Event with exactly the same name was also held in December of 2003, which was quite confusing for me when I was making Sasha video. After Campbell's 2002 there was also Crest Whitestripes International Skating Challenge won by Sasha with spectacular Rachmaninoff program, seven triples and only one mistake at 3Lz+3T. She landed there also gorgeous 3T+half loop+3S. Oh, and there was also Campbell's Cup at the biginning of 2006-2007 season with match-up between Kimmie Meissner and Mao Asada. Sorry for the big OT.
    I still think Sasha's 04 Marshall's (the one she won) could have battled Yuna in Vancouver. Yuna had a 3/3 but her lines don't compare to Sasha. That could have made the competition really close.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    I still think Sasha's 04 Marshall's (the one she won) could have battled Yuna in Vancouver. Yuna had a 3/3 but her lines don't compare to Sasha. That could have made the competition really close.
    I totally agree

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    I still think Sasha's 04 Marshall's (the one she won) could have battled Yuna in Vancouver. Yuna had a 3/3 but her lines don't compare to Sasha. That could have made the competition really close.
    I agree, but when you factor in the sp, there is no way that Cohen could come close to Kim with a flutz and no 3/3. The judges don't seem to be very concerned with leg-line when handing out GOE to Kim on spins and spirals () so I doubt Sasha would have much of a leg up in those areas (no pun intended).

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    Now this makes more sense. I see now that there were two Marshalls events for 2004 - the World Cup of Figure Skating where 1st - Irina, 2nd - Kwan, 3rd - Cohen. Then the World Skating Challenge where Sasha won. Confusing!
    Irina was spectacular at the World Skating Challenge after Worlds (she was ill at the time) and should've placed above Kwan there too.

    Back to the topic at hand. Cohen worked COP in it's early years. Edge calls were far more lenient and she would rack up points with her spectacular spirals and spins. She was also getting (and deserving, particularly for "Malaguena") 9s for PCS.

    A clean Cohen would've been in the hunt for the bronze and possibly silver in Vancouver, but had Rochette skated cleanly, I think she would've beaten Cohen (7 triples and 2 double Axels).

    With one less spin and a flat value for spirals in the latest rules, Cohen would've lost even more tricks in her arsenal (even Czisny's spiral is not as impressive as it was before).

    Still, I give Cohen credit for staging a comeback.

  10. #70
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    ...but we all know that "clean Cohen" is virtually an oxymoron :p

    how about the usual Cohen? Not the shadow of her we saw at Nats, but...she would not have gotten any medal. Hell, Nagasu went clean and got no medal (I really think she deserved bronze, but that's another subject)..

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    I still think Sasha's 04 Marshall's (the one she won) could have battled Yuna in Vancouver. Yuna had a 3/3 but her lines don't compare to Sasha. That could have made the competition really close.
    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    I agree, but when you factor in the sp, there is no way that Cohen could come close to Kim with a flutz and no 3/3. The judges don't seem to be very concerned with leg-line when handing out GOE to Kim on spins and spirals () so I doubt Sasha would have much of a leg up in those areas (no pun intended).
    Maybe, but judges are concerned with edges. And in that way, Sasha Cohen can't be compared to Yu-Na Kim.

    Back to the topic, I'm surprised at how good Kimmie's attempts at 2006 Worlds look.
    This is a good news.

  12. #72
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    Kimmie's 2006 worlds victory was totally her crowning moment. Not long after that her body began to change and, like so many other ladies, she wasn't able to adapt. Her jumps went south quickly and she ended up withdrawing from nationals and never came back. It was really sad watching her; the rotation on her jumps was awful, to the point she was landing them more than half a turn short.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Maybe, but judges are concerned with edges. And in that way, Sasha Cohen can't be compared to Yu-Na Kim.

    Back to the topic, I'm surprised at how good Kimmie's attempts at 2006 Worlds look.
    This is a good news.
    I disagree completely. Sasha doesn't necessarily have the best edges while stroking, but when she hits an inside edge on her camel spin on a good day, it's gorgeous and better than anything Yuna can manage. Yuna's spiral is faster, but the edges are not as deep or as steady as Sasha's IMO.

    For the record, I prefer Yuna to Sasha by miles, so defending Sasha here feels strange for me

  14. #74
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    My point with pitting Sasha against Yuna was not to compare the programs (Marshalls vs. Oly FS) but the skaters themselves at their best. In 04 nobody cared about incorrect edges, so it's likely that Sasha would have fixed this if she had competed this same program in 10. My point was that both skaters, at their best, were very similar, not picking apart a lutz edge or an extra jumping pass, because what Yuna has over Sasha there, Sasha has over Yuna with positioning and flexibility. Sasha barely competed under COP so it's not really fair to judge those COP areas for deductions against Yuna's experience. I'm talking, raw talent vs. raw talent, and in that they are very similar.

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