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  1. #261
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    I don't think that there's negativity toward Piper , so much as resistance to being pushed to say this team is more than they are at this stage of the game..

    Piper only passed her senior exam last year.. yet some people wanted to plant the idea that G/P was better than C/P even then. They do show promise, but subway's point about last year's Canadians results was right on the money. You might think Piper has a better "look" , but I can't say I think so , overall..The coaching team bore the ultimate responsibility for Vanessa's look , and it was woefully neglected.. But that's beside the point , the point is not Vanessa compared to Piper..the point is how do the two teams compare in their abilities and development ? G/P are not nearly as developed as C/P were , but the pluses and minuses are in different areas.

    I sincerely hope SC is not designating any "Next Ones" ...that's how they go wrong , time and again. It ought to be down to the skaters year by year. And that's why so many were incensed at G/P's obvious over marking last year , it appeared the designation had already taken place , with no record as a team and no exposure to international judging.

  2. #262

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    I really like this team and I really like what I saw with their new FD. Can't wait to see it up close in competition. I thought they filled the ice pretty nicely, the lifts looked interesting (from far away) and I loved their entrance to the twizzles. I think they are a very nice match on the ice and I hope for continued success for them. Being a non-Canadian, I'm not invested in the standings for the Canadian skaters, I just enjoy them as I see them and I was happy for them with their score last year. Their FD was delightful and a good debut for them, imo. Paul is a wonderful ice dancer and he seems to be guiding Piper very well.

    I look forward to seeing their new FD as it progresses...I actually liked the music, too. Best of luck to them!
    MERYL DAVIS AND CHARLIE WHITE - 2014 OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALISTS!

  3. #263
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    I am with Rafter. I think Gilles has a lot of potential and she already has a much better overall look than Crone did.

    Vanessa's basic skating was lovely but her posture and lines weren't great and the way she broke at the waist was just atrocious. She was almost 'pony trekking with Kristin Fraser' bad.

  4. #264
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    tapdancer ,you say you were happy for them with their score.

    So do you think then , that their score was deservedly so close to V/M ( and by extension , if it was fair..that they should have been receiving scores that close to those chalked up to DW last year) ?

    There is an upper limit to how high teams like V/M or D/W can be scored.

    I'm never happy to see teams get really grossly over marked at home ..it usually means they'll get a really nasty surprise when they meet with international scoring. I don't see how that's good for anyone.

  5. #265
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    Ziggy, you have always been very negative towards Vanessa, so I am not surprised it continues.Vanessa did break at the waist occasionally but not as much and as frequently as you are implying. Her posture, although not ballet ram rod straight, was okay. I understand that both issues improved greatly after a very short time with Angelika.
    I disagree about Piper, her posture is not significantly better and she has nowhere near the finesse or skating skills that Vanessa has. She still looks like he is dragging her around the ice.

  6. #266
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    Well, thanks for being so "specific" Subway. You've made it very clear you don't like the Gilles/ Poirier pairing because you don't like Gilles' "broken doll default mode on the ice," and the fact that Gilles in your estimation is "obviously not up to Paul's level." I agree with your stated "pluses" that G/P do possess.

    I don't have the same depth of knowledge you have regarding how Dean is viewed on FSU and elsewhere. It does seem to me that he is highly respected largely for his accomplishments on the ice with Jayne Torvill. I'm not familiar with anyone regarding him as "a genius choreographer." Like I said before, I'm not implying that your critiques/ opinions are invalid. I was just interested yes, and curious about your earlier comments. Thanks so much for elaborating.

    You seem so emotional and so invested in your apparent disgust of G/P pairing and Dean's "repetitive" choreography (my bad if you're not really disgusted). Anyways, pardon me for my over-curiousness, but are you a failed or former ice dancer?

    ETA: While I am not that enamored of G/P's FD music so far, ITA with your comments in #262 post, tapdancer. I too really like G/P -- I find them engaging and charismatic with a great deal of potential. I wish them well. They both seem happy together.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 08-13-2012 at 04:04 AM.

  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithie View Post
    Ziggy, you have always been very negative towards Vanessa, so I am not surprised it continues.
    Crone/Poirer have been one of my favourite ice dance teams and I've praised them and their intricate programs on many occasions.

    Crone's skating skills were good but I've felt that her posture issues did not significantly improve over the years.

  8. #268
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    You seem so emotional and so invested in your apparent disgust of G/P pairing and Dean's "repetitive" choreography (my bad if you're not really disgusted). Anyways, pardon me for my over-curiousness, but are you a failed or former ice dancer?
    Yes, because if I was, Gilles and Poirier would be exactly who would incite my resentment!

    Cut that lame sh*t out and please crawl back out from up my hind side. Deal with different opinions and try to keep the pitiful thin-skinned bitch reined in when someone disagrees. Or not. Also keep your fantasies out of your posts. This is the second time you've reacted to a rationally expressed point of view you disagree with by dumping a landfill's worth of your own nasty attitude not just onto what I said, but onto me personally. You don't have a leg to stand on and you're not making any sense. This is Skate Debate, not Trash Can, and you're being a tool.
    Last edited by Subway; 08-13-2012 at 05:12 AM.

  9. #269
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    Sure it's GSD and not name-calling debate on your part? Apparently I struck a nerve simply by asking a few questions. Seems more likely that you are overly sensitive to being asked to clarify and back-up your negative "points of view." Again your critiques are not invalid, not even of who or what you think I am, dare I say. But the crudity is simply uncalled for, IMHO, and disrespectful to the discussion at hand. I bear no rancor toward you Subway and I never have. I do apologize for apparently being the cause of your getting so beside yourself. Try taking a deep breath and finding your center. As far as your descriptive fantasies,

    Again, I wish Gilles/ Poirier well, and I wish for you freedom from anger and resentment, which is simply bile and disgust turned inward. It will eat away at you, not them.

  10. #270
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    And yes, there is obviously still a very apparent difference between Gilles' and Poirer's skating skills but I think she is slowly catching up. Obviously she will never be at his level but then there aren't any female partners at Paul's level that are available.

  11. #271
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    I think Dean is, at times, treated as the touchstone for creative genius on FSU and I disagree with it. He's a magnificent figure skater (those knees) and a gimmicky choreographer. When he choreographed for himself and Torvill, his theatrical/modern approach was new, because it had been more ballroom based. He hasn't done anything new since the 80's. Almost all the choreography he does is some type of derivative of his and Jayne's routines, which is why I question when he's called innovative. He's more repetitive than anyone out there. Dean is entitled to earn a living and please tell me where I've said he's not. However, if somebody says the very fact that Dean is working with someone means that person is a great skater because Dean is a genius, I'm going to disagree with both. He is, like every choreographer, including my favorite, Zoueva, working with those who hire him. He's a professional who needs to earn a living. He's not a skate god who only deigns to bestow his choreographic favor on those he thinks worthy of wearing his genius mantle. That is all. There's nothing suspect about me having this POV of Dean any more than thinking he's the last word in skating genius. It's not an insult, although I think he could do with refreshing his repertoire to more specifically (there's that strangely "interesting" word again) enhance the individual strengths of his teams, instead of making each team skate to his Dean style. One size doesn't fit all.
    I agree with much of this.

    I do think that Christopher Dean has done a few innovative things between the end of his skating career and now. For example, the House of Flying Daggers FD for Pratt and Gilles. But I also feel that his choreography for competitive programs have been largely tiresome and negligible. The rules and time have changed. Ice dance has changed. He hasn't kept up. Many of his fans (including Carol Lane, I presume) still hold him in very high esteem but I don't.

    On the other hand, it might be a bit of exaggeration to say he is "more repetitive than anyone" (Morozov would at least be in the run for that title), but Dean simply has not done very much work for competitive skaters. Whether he would be more or less repetitive if he had choreographed more competitive programs, no one knows.

    I actually kind of like Gilles/Poirier's new FD, as far away and blurry as it is. I like the music and some of the choreography. It looks a bit slow and more blade-on-ice content would be nice. Still, it is early and they can improve.

    Is Crone's skating skill better than Piper Gilles'? Yes, I think so. But Poirier is no longer skating with Crone. Whatever the reason for their split, it's over. What Piper and Paul can do now is only work hard and get better.
    Last edited by Jun Y; 08-13-2012 at 09:23 PM.

  12. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pratfall View Post
    I don't think that there's negativity toward Piper , so much as resistance to being pushed to say this team is more than they are at this stage of the game..

    Piper only passed her senior exam last year.. yet some people wanted to plant the idea that G/P was better than C/P even then. They do show promise, but subway's point about last year's Canadians results was right on the money. You might think Piper has a better "look" , but I can't say I think so , overall..The coaching team bore the ultimate responsibility for Vanessa's look , and it was woefully neglected.. But that's beside the point , the point is not Vanessa compared to Piper..the point is how do the two teams compare in their abilities and development ? G/P are not nearly as developed as C/P were , but the pluses and minuses are in different areas.

    I sincerely hope SC is not designating any "Next Ones" ...that's how they go wrong , time and again. It ought to be down to the skaters year by year. And that's why so many were incensed at G/P's obvious over marking last year , it appeared the designation had already taken place , with no record as a team and no exposure to international judging.

    I agree with all of this. My hope was that G/P would spend a LOT of time, perhaps even skip last season, to focus on the fundamentals of unison, line, edge, etc, and looking more like an equal team. C/P benefitted from skating together since they were almost babies. It is unrealistic to expect that G/P would look like that, only better, in a couple of seasons. Piper has a lovely bright personality, and there is a spark and energy to the team. Fun and refreshing comes to mind. But to try to suggest that they are further than they are in development as a competitive ice dance team is just not right. And the idea that they have been designated as the "next ones" already given last year's Nationals results defies logic and angers many. I saw Minto a couple of weeks ago, and watched both the Junior and Senior dance events. Bent/MacKeen won the event handily. In my mind, if G/P do not spend some real time working on their basics, then they may very well be surpassed in a few years, once everyone gets bored of G/P "tricky" programs, by Bent/MacKeen who are making tremendous progress year over year, have the benefit of many years together, and have all the basics. They are only one example of a whole bunch of great Junior teams that are up and coming.

    I know it is naive to think this, but really each competition should be taken on its own. There should never be any pre-determined "next ones". I think Skate Canada will be MUCH better off with international results at the Junior and developing Senior ranks if they ensured judges only marked what they see on the day of competition. It should not matter which Club or who is the coach, or if they had past success, or .... It should be what is skated on the ice. It gives more integrity to the event for the skaters, is more exciting for the audience, and keeps the coaches improving and developing their skaters since everyone really does have a chance. It's also why Nationals should NEVER AGAIN be a divided event like last year.

  13. #273

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subway View Post
    Yes, because if I was, Gilles and Poirier would be exactly who would incite my resentment!

    Cut that lame sh*t out and please crawl back out from up my hind side. Deal with different opinions and try to keep the pitiful thin-skinned bitch reined in when someone disagrees. Or not. Also keep your fantasies out of your posts. This is the second time you've reacted to a rationally expressed point of view you disagree with by dumping a landfill's worth of your own nasty attitude not just onto what I said, but onto me personally. You don't have a leg to stand on and you're not making any sense. This is Skate Debate, not Trash Can, and you're being a tool.
    Pot kettle black?

  14. #274

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pratfall View Post
    I don't think that there's negativity toward Piper , so much as resistance to being pushed to say this team is more than they are at this stage of the game..

    Piper only passed her senior exam last year.. yet some people wanted to plant the idea that G/P was better than C/P even then. They do show promise, but subway's point about last year's Canadians results was right on the money. You might think Piper has a better "look" , but I can't say I think so , overall..The coaching team bore the ultimate responsibility for Vanessa's look , and it was woefully neglected.. But that's beside the point , the point is not Vanessa compared to Piper..the point is how do the two teams compare in their abilities and development ? G/P are not nearly as developed as C/P were , but the pluses and minuses are in different areas.

    I sincerely hope SC is not designating any "Next Ones" ...that's how they go wrong , time and again. It ought to be down to the skaters year by year. And that's why so many were incensed at G/P's obvious over marking last year , it appeared the designation had already taken place , with no record as a team and no exposure to international judging.
    SC appointed V&M 'the next ones' after they won Jr Canadians and that didn't hurt them much. Same with B&K.

    As for the debate between Crone and Gilles, I think the only thing that Crone has over Gilles is edge quality. Both are very athletic girls but Gilles has the edge with toe point, posture and she is definitely more expressive than Crone. I also think Gilles & Poirier have better chemistry than Crone & Poirier did.

  15. #275
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    SC could never have avoided designating V/M..half the world had them designated ... their talent marked them as extreme stand-outs more than any other Canadian team in my memory ( which is quite long )..So they should just be out of the equation.

    At any rate, I wasn't only referring to ice dance..

    Shae and Vic came up in what was still the wait your turn , heavy politicking era..( which I won't claim is entirely non-existent , nowadays..but is far , far less important than it was.)

    We saw, in 2011, the difference in perceptions of C/P at home and abroad. I'm just saying you never know how that will work out and SC , in years when they have multiple teams who are close in ability ,would do better to support them all in the areas of PR and opportunities , and let the chips fall where they may.

    I don't think it's right to base opinions of C/P and G/P on comparisons of the female partner only, and as if time had been standing still in the meantime.... I'm tired of it.

  16. #276

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    A new video of G/P was posted in the Kiss n Cry area under the Thornhill/COS thread...was shot much closer and I could also hear the music better...just lovely....really liked it for so early in the season! I think it has tremendous potential.

  17. #277

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    Quote Originally Posted by dancefan17 View Post
    A new video of G/P was posted in the Kiss n Cry area under the Thornhill/COS thread...
    Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYNYbLcp3SA
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  18. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    Gilles/Poirier, like Crone/Poirier, are so special because they always offer something different, interesting, and fun from the other Canadian teams. I really love and appreciate their unique style! I love this music for them and the way they move to it! Can't wait to see how it evolves over the season and I wish them the very best of luck!

  19. #279

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    Piper and Paul were by far the best in the ice dance competition today. I thought they were fabulous. The other dance teams performances were tame compared to the exuberance and execution of elements that P/P showed. They are headed for a brilliant future.

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    That video showed a fabulous program, just lovely.

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