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  1. #21
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    Again, I bring up Stephane Lambiel's suggestion to make the short program the more technical one and the free program the more artistic one, so skaters can show their artistry/creativity. I don't know how serious Lambiel was, but it sounded interesting to me.

  2. #22
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    another artical about it:
    http://roll.sohu.com/20110722/n314201283.shtml
    “He(Patrick Chan) did good in this year's Worlds,but ISU's marking system is like "ancient curio" as always.There are many good skaters in china,hope they can challenge and make a change,don't consider just the points.Now many young people skate for a long time,but don't know what they are doing." he became more directly today compare last year,"Then let me make the rules,I can make a rule,and can represent Art and Fashion at the same time."

  3. #23

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    I totally agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by edonice View Post
    Sure, there are more restrictions now. But they can be seen as an opportunity for creativity.

    Virtue and Moir's free dance at the Olympics was transcendent, even with the incredibly high level of difficulty in their performance. Their movements had meaning. They made it work for them. I'd even argue that the high number of required elements forced them to be more creative, and made the performance better.

    Same with Yuna Kim.

    It's not that gorgeous performances can't still exist. It's that it's harder to do.
    Lovely comment.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by marbri View Post
    And ironic considering he is talking about beauty on ice
    My thoughts exactly. If Lady Gaga's type of shtick represents beauty, I'll take ugliness, thanks.
    Charter member of the "We Always Believed in Ashley" Club and the "We Believe in Ricky" Club
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyliefan View Post
    My thoughts exactly. If Lady Gaga's type of shtick represents beauty, I'll take ugliness, thanks.
    Beauty is not teen pop numbers such as Gaga, or totally ego centered numbers. Artistry does not consist of using the same tired old moves in the same order no matter what music is playing. I am beyond sick of the donut spin, ice slide and triple toe or triple lutz combined with the fire hydrant leg lift.

  6. #26
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    Oh come on, he's had two exhibition numbers to Lady Gaga and most of his programs, both competitive and exhibition, have been lyrical and even traditional figure skating. It wasn't long ago when he was slammed for being "the prima ballerina on the ice". People forget easily.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Margaret View Post
    Oh come on, he's had two exhibition numbers to Lady Gaga and most of his programs, both competitive and exhibition, have been lyrical and even traditional figure skating. It wasn't long ago when he was slammed for being "the prima ballerina on the ice". People forget easily.
    He has had plenty of pure ego numbers as well. My Way, the Jesus number, etc. It is supposed to be about entertaining the audience, not about hey look at me, I'm so special.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmscfdcsu View Post
    He has had plenty of pure ego numbers as well. My Way, the Jesus number, etc. It is supposed to be about entertaining the audience, not about hey look at me, I'm so special.
    I wouldn't say he's saying "look at me, I'm so special" any more than Kurt Browning or Yuna Kim is. It's a performance. Ego has a place in artistry, I'd say. Art is supposed to be a reflection of the artist, right? So I love how he picks the music as a reflection of what's happening in his life. I personally LOVED My Way, as well as Feeling Good, All in Love in Fair, Unchained Melody, Imagine, etc. And I loved that number he did in Korea-- You Made Me Impressed. Yes, he does use a lot of the same moves, but he does them so well and with so much grace. I would love to see him team up with a creative choreographer for his next exhibition piece...someone who would say, "How about a different spin this time?" or "How about skipping the slide?" I'd say he'd really achieve something artistically if he could combine his natural grace with someone else's creative vision. Gosh, Fallen Angels (the trio number) was great.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justathoughtabl View Post
    I wouldn't say he's saying "look at me, I'm so special" any more than Kurt Browning or Yuna Kim is.
    I would say that Johnny has done many more programs that he has specifically said are about him and/or his life than either of these skaters have done.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by flowerpower View Post
    I do understand the frustrations many people feel with the constraints of the new system, but under 6.0 we saw a few transcendent programs and a huge number of mediocre ones. Most 6.0 programs would be considered "fridge breaks" today.

    Today there are still just a few truly transcendent programs, but overall skating quality is higher and I'm enjoying many more skaters.

    Under the new system we're seeing much better quality step sequences and spins across the board, and cheating of jumps/poor flow out is no longer considered acceptable. It used to be that even world medalists could get away with crappy spins and simple stroking between elements. When I go back and watch older videos now, I'm usually disappointed in what I see. (And the videos that made it to onto Youtube are generally of the better performances.) There was a lot of posing, especially in the slow part in the middle (which was generally designed for skaters to catch their breath), unrelated musical selections were spliced together with no unifying concept, poor skating skills, etc. Our expectations are much higher today.

    The freedom to be creative did not lead, overall, to great creativity and high standards back in the day, because people could win without it. We should probably find a way to liberalize COP, but IMO we shouldn't romanticize the reality of how people used (or in fact didn't use) the freedom that 6.0 gave them. In other words, I feel that as we tweak the new system, we should make sure to retain the benefits that COP has brought.
    ^ This, exactly. And Patrick Chan manages to deliver artistry and beauty while also racking up points, as did Takahashi and Buttle. Sounds like sour grapes from Johnny. BTW, I also vote this thread be moved to the Trash Can, "cause I was bored this way."

  11. #31
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    Everybody doesn't have to like him and there's nothing wrong with that.
    But saying that a person, whose skating has been described as "liquid gold" or "athletically graceful beyond belief" by figure skating experts, doesn't know anything about beauty in skating is just mean spirited.
    By the way, I'm all for IJS and I don't think that it impossible to deliver beauty and artistry under IJS. After all, "The Swan" was created in COP era and it is considered his signature piece.

    I don't see a problem with ego centered numbers. Skating is an individual and highly competitive sport and everybody says "look at me" when stepping to the ice.

    All in all, Johnny Weir is a polarizing character, news at ten.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Margaret View Post
    But saying that a person, whose skating has been described as "liquid gold" or "athletically graceful beyond belief" by figure skating experts
    Source?
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  13. #33
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    Dick Button said that second quote. Not sure who said the first.

    ETA: Here's your source for the 2nd quote, at 3:15.
    Last edited by BittyBug; 07-22-2011 at 10:04 PM. Reason: Add link
    "I miss footwork that has any kind of a discernible pattern. The goal of a step sequence should not be for a skater to show the same ice coverage as a Zamboni and take about as much time as an ice resurface. " ~ Zemgirl, reflecting on a pre-IJS straight line sequence

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Source?
    Dick Button, Marshall's 2006.I'm not sure if I'm allowed to link directly to the YouTube here. Dick Button has had a lot of nice things to say about Johnny's skating over the years, and he specifically focused on the beauty and grace.

  15. #35

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    Ahg, CoP has introduced us to the ugliest positions.

  16. #36

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    Weir can wait for the COP to make a million changes and he will never win because he never takes advantage of the most basic point getting opportunities and he skates around like a zombie. His skating was once beautiful but he hasn't had that in a VERY long time, probably since 2003 or 2004.
    -Brian
    "Michelle would never be caught with sausage grease staining her Vera Wang." - rfisher

  17. #37

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    I don't think anyone's saying that Johnny's not talented. The point was that some of us think that Lady Gaga's act is anything but beautiful, and don't know why anyone would want to be compared to it.
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigB08822 View Post
    Weir can wait for the COP to make a million changes and he will never win because he never takes advantage of the most basic point getting opportunities and he skates around like a zombie. His skating was once beautiful but he hasn't had that in a VERY long time, probably since 2003 or 2004.
    Which is odd because he didn't win his first US Championship till '04.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyliefan View Post
    I don't think anyone's saying that Johnny's not talented. The point was that some of us think that Lady Gaga's act is anything but beautiful, and don't know why anyone would want to be compared to it.
    This is just a matter of taste though. Somebody must like it. The woman sells a wad of records. His Gaga bits were only for exhibitions. Pure entertainment, not for points. And the fans screech loud enough when he performs them.

  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by BittyBug View Post
    But what COP has done, at least from my viewpoint, is vastly reduced the variety that we used to see in skating. For example, back in the day we usually only saw Bielmann spins from people who could do them well. Now just about every lady is including them, even if it's an obvious struggle, because it's a way to get more points.
    There was an equal lack of variety under 6.0 among programs that were generally more empty. Then, as now, there were many generic and mediocre cookie-cutter programs, with the exceptions standing out as the ones that were remembered.


    Or consider footwork - to get the higher levels skaters need to use the full dimension of space or some b.s. like that, so we see skaters bobbing up and down with no relation to the music in an effort to get to a higher level, whereas before, that type of motion would usually have only been seen if it was inspired by the music. So today it seems very whereas before it would have stood out.
    They may not have bobbed up and down so much, but there was plenty of simple footwork that had little to do with the music. IIRC only one footwork sequence will be counted as an element next season? That gives skaters extra freedom to be really creative in the non-scoring footwork.

    If a skater is musical or inspired by music, CoP won't inhibit it. CoP is just a frame and skaters will find ways to be creative it within - especially those who grew up skating under the system. Creativity is an inner drive and an innate sensibility. You can't prevent it from being expressed. There is no less - or no more - of it than there was under the old system. Some beautiful and exquisite programs have been created under CoP (Virtue/Moir, Chan, Takahashi, Kim, and Pang/Tong, to name just a few.

    Quote Originally Posted by flowerpower
    Under the new system we're seeing much better quality step sequences and spins across the board, and cheating of jumps/poor flow out is no longer considered acceptable. It used to be that even world medalists could get away with crappy spins and simple stroking between elements. When I go back and watch older videos now, I'm usually disappointed in what I see. (And the videos that made it to onto Youtube are generally of the better performances.) There was a lot of posing, especially in the slow part in the middle (which was generally designed for skaters to catch their breath), unrelated musical selections were spliced together with no unifying concept, poor skating skills, etc. Our expectations are much higher today.

    The freedom to be creative did not lead, overall, to great creativity and high standards back in the day, because people could win without it. We should probably find a way to liberalize COP, but IMO we shouldn't romanticize the reality of how people used (or in fact didn't use) the freedom that 6.0 gave them. In other words, I feel that as we tweak the new system, we should make sure to retain the benefits that COP has brought.
    ITA. And one thing I like better about CoP is the room for movement in the LP. There is a lot more motivation for a skater to skate the LP well in absence of the top three 6.0 advantage. And I find the LP much more exciting now.
    Last edited by Japanfan; 07-23-2011 at 06:52 AM.

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