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  1. #1

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    "Wuzrobbed" vs. "Different Opinions"

    Inspired by another thread:

    Do you distinguish between the two? If so, what factors do you consider before thinking that "Skater X wuzrobbed" as opposed to "reasonable minds can have different opinions"

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    If we are talking about my favorite skater, than it's wuzrobbed. If it's yours, then we can have different opinions.

    That was said jokingly, but I think there's a lot of truth in that statement. If you don't have an emotional attachment to the skater (or baseball team or gymnast or whatever) in question, it is easier to be open minded.

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    [QUOTE=sk8er1964;3232750]If we are talking about my favorite skater, than it's wuzrobbed. If it's yours, then we can have different opinions.

    I agree. If you are judging a performance for overall impression, or judging it by the sum of individual components, it can make a difference also. Patrick Chan's infamous Skate Canada win is an example. The component scores may have added up, but the overall impression that falling 3x made was not a winning performance.

    I think the reason that the gold medal in the pairs competition at the Salt Lake Olympics was such a big deal was that the French judge publicized the fact that she was told to manipulate the scoring.

    However, skating is such a small world I imagine how you interact with the judges and officials can't help but have an impact on your score.

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    Different opinions: Chen/Kwan in 96 or Kwan/Lipinski in 98.

    Wuzrobbed: Kerrigan (who I can't stand) over Baiul in 94.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    Different opinions: Chen/Kwan in 96 or Kwan/Lipinski in 98.

    Wuzrobbed: Kerrigan (who I can't stand) over Baiul in 94.
    Yes, I agree with those examples.

    I understand why Baiul won and I don't think there was necessarily any funny business going on. I just think that the nature of the ordinal system, the lack of instant replay or other mechanism for verifying the more verifiable objective facts about the skating, and the emotional preferences of the judges allowed for a result that's hard to justify in sporting terms.

    Instant replay and technical panels and clearer guidelines for how much each skill is worth under IJS make an inherently subjective process a little more objective. But there are still going to be situations where I disagree with the majority of judges or with several decisions by the tech panels.

    Or more often I'll disagree with the way the Scale of Values and the factoring for the various PCS are structured in general, or how they happen to work out for a particular skater in relation to others in that event. I.e., weightings structurally built into each year's version of the IJS.

    Even if I agree with the judges' marks and the tech panels calls, if a beautifully skated program lost because of downgrades on a few not-very-cheated jumps that looked clean to the naked eye in real time, for example, I may disagree with the result because I disagree with how severely the system punished that particular error. At least the new 70% base value for those jumps mitigates that problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8er1964 View Post
    If we are talking about my favorite skater, than it's wuzrobbed. If it's yours, then we can have different opinions.

    I think that's it, in a nutshell.
    'Life's hard. It's even harder when you're stupid.'--John Wayne

  7. #7

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    I agree. If you are judging a performance for overall impression, or judging it by the sum of individual components, it can make a difference also. Patrick Chan's infamous Skate Canada win is an example. The component scores may have added up, but the overall impression that falling 3x made was not a winning performance.
    All I feel is that i don't want a system where someone can win with four falls total, over others who are good skaters but were much cleaner.

    Execution needs to matter somewhat in this system. And falling 3 times in one program is not a grand example of good execution.

    IJS does do some good things but overal impression of a program should matter.

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    Or more recently, Nagasu/Flatt.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Or more recently, Nagasu/Flatt.
    2010 Nationals? That's exactly an example of my last paragraph above, where the officials on both the tech panel and judging panel were just doing their jobs and the downgrade rules made the difference.

    Unless we want the judges to try to second guess Scale of Values and inflate the marks for the skater they enjoy more or think the public would probably rather see win.

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    I was thinking about PCS marks, mainly.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Yes, I agree with those examples.

    I understand why Baiul won and I don't think there was necessarily any funny business going on. I just think that the nature of the ordinal system, the lack of instant replay or other mechanism for verifying the more verifiable objective facts about the skating, and the emotional preferences of the judges allowed for a result that's hard to justify in sporting terms.
    I've heard numourous times that Oksana won because most of the judges didn't notice she two-footed one of her jumps (I can't remember exactly, but I think it was the flip).

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    ^ The one of the judges said he didn't notice Nancy's 3/3.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 07-12-2011 at 04:55 AM.

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    If those are reasons for the 1994 Ladies' results, then the judges clearly shouldn't be judging the competition. If they were competent, it certainly didn't show.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    ^ The one of the judges said he didn't notice Nancy's 3/3.
    Are you for real?
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    All I feel is that i don't want a system where someone can win with four falls total, over others who are good skaters but were much cleaner.

    Execution needs to matter somewhat in this system. And falling 3 times in one program is not a grand example of good execution.

    IJS does do some good things but overal impression of a program should matter.
    ITA, and it looks like in theory COP agrees too, what with the performance/execution mark...however Patrick received 7.61 for his P/E mark in the SP. Second highest of the night, only .07 points behind Oda's score - and Oda won the SP! And again at Cup of Russia, his freeskate P/E score was the second highest of the night, barely .2 points behind Verner, even though he had three falls and Verner skated clean.

    I'm not going to deny that Patrick is an amazing skater (his freeskate at Canadian nationals this year was jaw-dropping), but some of the PCS scores he got this season are, to speak frankly, insane and unfair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    Different opinions: Chen/Kwan in 96 or Kwan/Lipinski in 98.

    Wuzrobbed: Kerrigan (who I can't stand) over Baiul in 94.
    I think B/S & S/P in 2002 can fall under "Different opinions", but someone's going to get me for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    I've heard numourous times that Oksana won because most of the judges didn't notice she two-footed one of her jumps (I can't remember exactly, but I think it was the flip).
    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    ^ The one of the judges said he didn't notice Nancy's 3/3.
    These are probably the same judges who did see a step sequence or two somewhere in Baiul's long program.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    I've heard numourous times that Oksana won because most of the judges didn't notice she two-footed one of her jumps (I can't remember exactly, but I think it was the flip).
    That and what gkelly said.

    I remember watching it on television and I couldn't tell right away if Oksana had two-footed.

    I've also heard that the programs looked very different live than on television (or on video tape). Some judges mentioned that Oksana had much more speed and charisma, as opposed to Nancy who, while she skated well, looked a bit slow and, let's face it, her choreography did have something to be desired. And with no instant replay, I can see how the outcome was what it was. Also, remember that Nancy did double a flip and underrotated a 3lz.

    Not saying I agree with the outcome, but it did appear to be closer than it probably should have been (after all of us watching a billion times over the last 17 years).

  19. #19
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    It's not that difficult to distinguish between the two. And even if we aren't happy with a result, I don't think we say our favorite has been wuzrobbed if there is no debate !
    The problem is when it could have gone either way.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    That and what gkelly said.

    I remember watching it on television and I couldn't tell right away if Oksana had two-footed.

    I've also heard that the programs looked very different live than on television (or on video tape). Some judges mentioned that Oksana had much more speed and charisma, as opposed to Nancy who, while she skated well, looked a bit slow and, let's face it, her choreography did have something to be desired. And with no instant replay, I can see how the outcome was what it was. Also, remember that Nancy did double a flip and underrotated a 3lz.

    Not saying I agree with the outcome, but it did appear to be closer than it probably should have been (after all of us watching a billion times over the last 17 years).
    As I said earlier, NOT a Kerrigan fan, but there is a lot of misinformation in this thread.
    1) Oksana two-footed TWO jumps (a toe and a flip). She doubled the first attempt at the 3toe, and threw one in at the end, causing her to end late with a sloppy 2a/2t as her only combination.

    2)Nancy skated with good speed, and did NOT under-rotate a triple lutz, she landed a clean one in the back half of the program.

    3)Oksana had good speed?? The "program" has three resting spots where she "dances" at center ice at a whopping 0mph. Oksana definitely had more artistic potential than Nancy, but her skills were not apparent in that horrid LP that should have had spin and step deductions.

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