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  1. #21

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    Plushenko's transitions marks are always to high as he had often said you don't need them, just jump.
    Kostner's skating skills are about the best in women's field, so she should always get these marks quite high. This year she has grown in presentation really much.
    PCS are not jumps and it's why they get are to mark independently. I always think skaters who are god jumpers get high PCS, but it shouldn't be so. Jumps get a lot of credit in the technical marks; the skating skills, presentation, execution, transitions, choreography, the artistry ... should reflected much more independently in PCS.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moka-Ananas View Post
    Carolina Kostner and Patrick Chan come to mind who often managed to get high PCS although they bombed their programs.
    PC:2010 SC

  3. #23
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    Carolina Kostner's amazing footwork usually deserves high scores. Girl has MAD speed and skating skills! Her choreography and musical interpretation usually merit her high scores as well I think.

  4. #24
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    I felt DelSchoes often deserved higher PCS than they were given.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumbleFish View Post
    My problem with current PCS marking is that some skaters' marks never go down even when they screw up badly.

    PCS marks should tumble when skaters make multiple errors, but for likes of Chan, Kostner, and Takahashi, their PCS never drops. We saw this at 2010 SC for Chan, 2008 Worlds for Kostner, and 2009 GPF for Takahashi. I think highly of these skaters' skills and think they should get high PCS if they perform well, but I cannot stand them getting held up even when they mess up.

    For Ando, it is a different story. She always gets absurdly high PCS despite doing nothing that deserves such marks.
    I've heard that stated several times, but what about someone like Denis Ten? He got higher PCS for an LP with five falls than he did for an LP with three falls (Skate America 2010 vs NHK 2010). I think if you examine the scores, you'll see that mistakes on elements tend not to be reflected in the actual PCS (S/S at Euros 2011 is another example)

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    "Bombing" a program, though, doesn't always mean low PCS should be given. One can have 2-3 falls, pops, etc. and still deserve good marks for skating skills, choreography, interpretation.
    I agree, Chan fell on a quad and got the deduction, he got right back up. Fell on a triple and got the deduction, got right back up. Neither one I would consider egregious. The fall on the footwork was at the last 10 seconds of the program, it was weird but he did again get the deduction. The rest was good and hardly a bomb. He got the deductions where he should have got them. But he didn't he didn't get deducted where he clearly earned the score.

    This is a bomb yet their PCS scores were on par with the second place team even though they were in 4th and much higher than the third place team.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    "Bombing" a program, though, doesn't always mean low PCS should be given. One can have 2-3 falls, pops, etc. and still deserve good marks for skating skills, choreography, interpretation.
    Not really. One fall you can maybe get away with it - by two or three falls or pops you've really taken away from the feel of the program.

    I honestly don't understand the Gachinsky Worlds 2011 hate. He actually skated really well and I like the style he's developing. It's kind of a YagudinPlushenkoKulikWeir mishmash. It's fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by RumbleFish View Post
    My problem with current PCS marking is that some skaters' marks never go down even when they screw up badly.

    PCS marks should tumble when skaters make multiple errors, but for likes of Chan, Kostner, and Takahashi, their PCS never drops. We saw this at 2010 SC for Chan, 2008 Worlds for Kostner, and 2009 GPF for Takahashi. I think highly of these skaters' skills and think they should get high PCS if they perform well, but I cannot stand them getting held up even when they mess up.
    THIS this this.

    Quote Originally Posted by RumbleFish View Post
    IMO, errors like falls, step-outs, two-footing, and cheated jumps should have negative impact on PCS marks. Afterall, how can skaters peform choreography or display skating skills when they are cleaning off the ice with their butts? Likewise, noticeable mistakes takes the air out of programs and enthusiasm among the crowd.
    This is pretty much my thoughts exactly.

    IMO I don't think falls are penalised harshly enough. I've heard enough people criticise and say "it's figure SKATING, not figure JUMPING" well let me reply with, "it's figure SKATING, not figure FALLING!"

    If you fall, it should be a whopping deduction, not the little ones it is now. (I don't think -3 GOE and a -1 deduction is enough, really.) You should not be able to win with a fall. You shouldn't be able to top five with two, and you should be lucky to top 10 with three or more. (For the record, this isn't a Chan hate issue - I also think Plushenko was extremely lucky to be 4th after the SLC SP.)

    Or, to put it another way - in motor racing, you could have smooth cornering, excellent braking skills, great acceleration technique. But if you crash, you're penalised - either by the stewards for being a moron, or by the simple fact that you can't continue. Either way it's virtually impossible to win the race - as it should be.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    If you fall, it should be a whopping deduction, not the little ones it is now. (I don't think -3 GOE and a -1 deduction is enough, really.) You should not be able to win with a fall. You shouldn't be able to top five with two, and you should be lucky to top 10 with three or more. (For the record, this isn't a Chan hate issue - I also think Plushenko was extremely lucky to be 4th after the SLC SP.)
    Saying a skater can't win with a fall is not taking into consideration everything else they are being judged on.

    If a skater has a base value of 80 and improves that by 10 but has one fall and another skater has a base value of of 60 and improves that by 5 with no falls, with both PCS' being equal the skater with no falls wins even though that skate wasn't as good points wise? Why don't we just turn the music off when a skater falls and ask them to leave the ice?

    Does a team who throws and interception never come back to win the Superbowl? Does a batter who strikesout never comes back to win a World Series? The list goes on and on.....

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    Or, to put it another way - in motor racing, you could have smooth cornering, excellent braking skills, great acceleration technique. But if you crash, you're penalised - either by the stewards for being a moron, or by the simple fact that you can't continue. Either way it's virtually impossible to win the race - as it should be.
    I do not agree with this analogy. In a racing sport all competitors are basically doing the same thing, complete the same course.

    In figure skating is different. Unless all skaters do the exact same steps and exact same elements, those who fall should not win. However that's not the case as we all know.

  10. #30
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    Never thought Alissa Czsiny was gifted with PCS. She skates slow and tentatively. People think she should get higher PCS because of her artistry.

    Evan Lysacek was always gifted with PCS. Those frenetic moves look very awkard on ice.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fozzie Bear View Post
    I felt DelSchoes often deserved higher PCS than they were given.

    ITA!

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by moebius View Post
    Evan Lysacek was always gifted with PCS. Those frenetic moves look very awkard on ice.
    I am still traumatised by that Olympic LP. My first introduction to men's figure skating (okay not quite, we'd seen Lambiel, Weir, Takahasi and Chan before that) and we were greeted by this flaily, slimy, greasy, touch-myself-all-over, creepy guy. All the self touching was seriously creepy, gotta say.

    Never really understood how anyone could call Plushenko "flaily" but call Lysacek "artistry".

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by moebius View Post

    Evan Lysacek was always gifted with PCS. Those frenetic moves look very awkard on ice.
    Agreed!!!

    Chan deserves every PC mark he gets

  14. #34
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    IMO, errors like falls, step-outs, two-footing, and cheated jumps should have negative impact on PCS marks. Afterall, how can skaters peform choreography or display skating skills when they are cleaning off the ice with their butts?
    I agree. Most jumping errors also detract from the choreography (and pretty much always from the mood) of the program and that should be reflected in lower PCS as well as the TES. Often when a skater has jump problems, the skater also just seems to be not quite on top of thing in other aspects of the program as well. Even when that general roughness does not translate to falls, those skates should not get the same PCS as that skater's better skates.

    Even without a fall, one of those clinging for dear life landings takes extra seconds and is often followed by a bit of rushed choreo to catch up, sometimes reducing the choreographic impact of the next element as well. There also are some top skaters whose post-fall body language just looks like they have stopped selling the program and are just going thru the motions. That too should be reflected in PCS scores

    Except for maybe execution, which is held up because the judges don't want to be out of the window, Chan deserves high PCS all the time.
    Even good skaters have days where they are skating tight and are "not quite over their blades today" as the announcers like to say and Chan is not immune to this.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    Never really understood how anyone could call Plushenko "flaily" but call Lysacek "artistry".
    I TOTALLY agree with you! I find both Evgeny and Evan similarly annoying in the flail category.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    I TOTALLY agree with you! I find both Evgeny and Evan similarly annoying in the flail category.
    Ditto. And seriously overmarked on transitions as well.
    I am free of all prejudices. I hate everyone equally.~W. C. Fields

  17. #37
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    Ryan Jahnke was another one who was hosed in PCS. If only he had a consistent axel, he might have received Buttle-esque scores.

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    I am still traumatised by that Olympic LP. My first introduction to men's figure skating (okay not quite, we'd seen Lambiel, Weir, Takahasi and Chan before that) and we were greeted by this flaily, slimy, greasy, touch-myself-all-over, creepy guy. All the self touching was seriously creepy, gotta say.

    Never really understood how anyone could call Plushenko "flaily" but call Lysacek "artistry".
    Yet you like Plush's style with all those hip rolls and genital thrusts? Yes, right, that's got it.
    I guess the hard thing for a lot of people to accept is why God would allow me to go running through their yards, yelling and spinning around.


  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozzisk8tr View Post
    Yet you like Plush's style with all those hip rolls and genital thrusts? Yes, right, that's got it.
    At least Plushy looked like he was having fun with the hip rolls. He was fun to watch. Lysacek looked like he was taking the self-touching extremely seriously. It was creepy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    At least Plushy looked like he was having fun with the hip rolls. He was fun to watch. Lysacek looked like he was taking the self-touching extremely seriously. It was creepy.
    "Fun" is in the eye of the beholder. Truly not an objective criteria.
    I am free of all prejudices. I hate everyone equally.~W. C. Fields

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