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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    Agreed. Except Euros 2002! Abt wuzrobbed by Yags (my favourite skater!).
    Quote Originally Posted by SmallFairy View Post
    I was going to mention that!! Sasha was sooooooo robbed! and I adored both skaters to death!

    Sasha clearly skated better that night, I was there live, and not only did he skate brilliantly in the FS, both his QR and the SP was flawless too. I remember Yags trying several times to complete his 3l, without any luck...mostly doubles IIRC
    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    Even Yags, himself, basically admitted that this result was wrong in an interview where he said (paraphrasing) "In a few years, no one will remember the competition, just that I was the 2002 European champion."
    Add another to the SASHA WUZ ROBBED AT EUROS list!

    I re-watched the video the other day, and when the marks come up, they cut to a shot of Yags, and he didn't look happy at all, just shaking his head. I think everyone in that arena except the judges knew Sasha should have won.

    Sasha Abt was also robbed in the SP at SLC. How his clean, awesome SP ended up below Plushy's splat-the-quad (but otherwise flawless) SP I don't know. Sasha should have been at least third. Maybe the judges were just terrified that they might end up with a Russian 1-2-3 on American soil!

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    How his clean, awesome SP ended up below Plushy's splat-the-quad (but otherwise flawless) SP I don't know.
    Underrotated Lutz

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    Add another to the SASHA WUZ ROBBED AT EUROS list!

    I re-watched the video the other day, and when the marks come up, they cut to a shot of Yags, and he didn't look happy at all, just shaking his head. I think everyone in that arena except the judges knew Sasha should have won.

    Sasha Abt was also robbed in the SP at SLC. How his clean, awesome SP ended up below Plushy's splat-the-quad (but otherwise flawless) SP I don't know. Sasha should have been at least third. Maybe the judges were just terrified that they might end up with a Russian 1-2-3 on American soil!
    I've often criticized Plush, but I actually think his 02 SLC sp is some of the best presentation he's ever done. Maybe falling on the quad eliminated his arrogrance and allowed him to give a more intimate performance, idk but taking into consideration that and (as MR FAN pointed out) sasha's lutz was badly cheated...I don't have a problem with that placement.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    I've often criticized Plush, but I actually think his 02 SLC sp is some of the best presentation he's ever done. Maybe falling on the quad eliminated his arrogrance and allowed him to give a more intimate performance, idk but taking into consideration that and (as MR FAN pointed out) sasha's lutz was badly cheated...I don't have a problem with that placement.
    Oh, I agree that what followed after the fall was absolutely flawless and wonderful. It was just that the fall...I have a big hang-up on skaters doing well despite falling. In fact, I think the 2002 SLC SP was the best presentation of that program he ever did.

    Now here's the thing. After enduring Scott Hamilton bashing Sasha all through the SP once (including his insistence that the 3Lz was cheated), I went back and watched the lutz many times. I still don't see that it was cheated. I've seen worse not get marked down.

  5. #45
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    SASHA ABT WUZ ROBBED AT EUROS!!!


  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FAN View Post
    Underrotated Lutz
    I can't see an under-rotation on the lutz at all.

    He had an off balance landing on the 3A and while he didn't actually touch the ice his hand went down towards the ice.

    His flying camel had a wobble on it and required a re-centering on the landing.

    But I still think both of those errors leave less deductions than Evgeny's fall on the quad and I can't see why they would have differnt BVs to start with.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    I can't see an under-rotation on the lutz at all.

    He had an off balance landing on the 3A and while he didn't actually touch the ice his hand went down towards the ice.

    His flying camel had a wobble on it and required a re-centering on the landing.

    But I still think both of those errors leave less deductions than Evgeny's fall on the quad and I can't see why they would have differnt BVs to start with.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zipCnbnxp4 He slipped off the toe, similarly to how Michelle Kwan did on the flip in her short program at those games, which caused less height than normal and an obvious turn on the landing. His axel was pretty rough, too.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zipCnbnxp4 He slipped off the toe, similarly to how Michelle Kwan did on the flip in her short program at those games, which caused less height than normal and an obvious turn on the landing. His axel was pretty rough, too.
    That's the one I watched and I can't see a cheat in real time at all, there wasn't a slow mo of it at the end either.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Are you for real?
    It wouldn't be the first time judges said incredibly stupid things.

    After the free skate in Salt Lake City, several judges explained their votes quite poorly. The ITA judge said Michelle Kwan "didn't look fresh."

    He added, ''Slutskaya, her jumps are high. But last night, she was a little bit afraid. She was not so fluid. Sometimes, in the landing of a jump, she was stiff. I found she had few connecting steps. So the whole program, compared to the other three American skaters, she was slower in using her music. But what can I say? I was sure about first place, but I had to think about the next three.''

    I'm glad that he put some thought into it.

    And then there was the Canadian judge: ''I thought there was no question from my point of view who was in first place -- Sarah Hughes,'' Islam said. ''Sarah was the performance of the evening for me, technically and on the second mark as well. Michelle and Irina, you could have gone either way...''[/B]

    It is interesting to learn that people who decided the Olympics might not be qualified to post on FSU.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/23/sp...anted=2&src=pm

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    It is interesting to learn that people who decided the Olympics might not be qualified to post on FSU.
    I assume that they would have worded their explanations differently if the audience they had been addressing were FSU readers, or the ISU technical committee, or trial judges they were supposed to be training, rather than New York Times readers.

    Even so, especially under 6.0 but still with most aspects of the PCS and some aspects of the GOEs, judges may experience all the qualitative aspects of a performance as a gestalt and not be very good at articulating their perceptions and thought processes into words.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    That's the one I watched and I can't see a cheat in real time at all, there wasn't a slow mo of it at the end either.
    Different opinions I guess It seems pretty blatant to me. That, the really sloppy axel, and slow skating are enough to justify his placement for me.

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    That's the one I watched and I can't see a cheat in real time at all, there wasn't a slow mo of it at the end either.
    Me neither!

    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    Different opinions I guess It seems pretty blatant to me. That, the really sloppy axel, and slow skating are enough to justify his placement for me.
    The axel wasn't really that bad. Yes, he pitched forward on the landing. He didn't put a hand down, he didn't fall, he got the arms and leg out. As for the speed, he's actually quite fast, but it LOOKS slow because he's got those lovely long legs and such lovely soft knees and wonderful edges.

    As for the lutz, I paid special attention to his feet when I watched it again this time, and his landing foot is actually straight. He doesn't do any turn on the ice at ALL. He immediately gets into his outside edge after the flat landing, and pushes his free leg out, which creates the ILLUSION of a turn, but there isn't actually a turn.

    Overall I love the program. I think it's awesome. Unusual, fun, technically comparable to the programs the other Russians were doing.

    And he looks like he's having a ball while he's skating, which always makes it better.

  13. #53
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    Robbed: Caryn Kadavy in the short program at the 1988 Olympics.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by JockProf View Post
    Robbed: Caryn Kadavy in the short program at the 1988 Olympics.
    I agree, but it's a moot point since she withdrew. Too bad they didn't send Harding instead. She skated a much better free program at Nationals than Caryn, who was a total wreck.

  15. #55
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    I've often criticized Plush, but I actually think his 02 SLC sp is some of the best presentation he's ever done.
    I still think that program should have beaten Yagudin's free skate. I think the judges would have marked those two programs differently if Plushy had been top 3 after the SP. However, after the pairs fiasco, the judges wanted a clear winner, so they gave the first place marks to Yagudin since he was going to win whether first or second in the Free. (I say this as one who was rooting for Yags and not generally fond of Plushy's style.)

    Still, had Plushy been in a position to win after the SP, he may not have delivered such a good freeskate.

    Re Sashi Abt - "...under-rotation ... off balance ... wobble"
    This series of of terms kind of explains in a nutshell why Abt often did not get the marks one might expect just looking at his element list.

    I always enjoyed Abt because (apart from being good looking) he was stylish and a bit quirky, but his skating always looked ready to fail at any second. He just did not exude command the way skaters like Yags & Plushy do. (Make that did, IMO Plushy in Calgary looked less in command than he used to.)

    I think a lot of the results that make us cry wuzrobbed, undermarked or overmarked derive from basic skating technique. Judges love skaters with clean edges, effortless, powerful stroking and good speed and they will often reward those things to produce results that go beyond the jump count and specific elements. I think that is why Kostner so often seems gifted by the judges. She is effortlessly fast.

    Some of these differences don't show up until you see the skaters in person. The other thing I notice more in person is the ease and control on jumps. Lots of guys can rotate and land a double axel, but none of his peers made it look so big and pretty and clean as Robin Cousins could. 18 years later, you could say the same about Kulik's triple axel. It is no surprise the judges loved both these skaters. I know there was a lot else about these two incredibly musical skaters to set them apart, but I mention the ease of the jumps as things that may not be clearly seen on TV (and especially not on youtube videos).
    Last edited by Susan M; 07-24-2011 at 05:54 AM.

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