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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polymer Bob View Post
    This might be totally academic, but if a skater can rotate in both directions, he/she can have a combo with the 2nd jump something other than a loop or toe loop.

    There is a video somewhere os Shizuka doing a triple-triple-triple.
    Someone asked earlier in the thread about 3/3/3s and I mentioned the following skaters:

    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    Mao landed a 3f/3t/3r at Japanese nationals in 02/03 but it was loaded with under-rotation. Shizuka practiced 3/3/3s, most notably 3s/3t/3r at the 06 Olympics official practices. I also remember Peter Carruthers saying that Slutskaya was landing 3s/3r/3r during practice on the 05 GP circuit. There is little incentive to do one now.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SauJKulmYlU This is video I mentioned with Shizuka landing 3s/3t/3r at the Olympics.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    I've often wondered why certain records in figure skating get honored and remembered while others seem to go unnoticed. On that note, would anyone care to help me fill in some blanks on who were the first women to complete each type of 3/3 jump?


    3sal/3loop: Irina Slutskaya and Tara Lipinski were both trying this combo in 1995/96 and I believe Tara landed it first either on the junior GP or at junior worlds. Slutskaya had a messy attempt at a GP that year but I can't recall her landing it cleanly until 97.

    All info/corrections appreciated!
    On this vid from the 1995 US nationals ladies LP warm-up, the commentator mentions a 3sal-3loop that Michelle was to attempt. Is it a mistake or did MK really plan that combo?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyCurry View Post
    On this vid from the 1995 US nationals ladies LP warm-up, the commentator mentions a 3sal-3loop that Michelle was to attempt. Is it a mistake or did MK really plan that combo?
    I'm pretty sure it's a mistake. Michelle's layout had been the same all year long. I think what Carroll meant is that the slow section (where she does a solo 3sal, followed by a solo 3loop) could be problematic because the loop was always Kwan's nemesis. She did practice this combination much later in her career but never showed it in actual competition.

  4. #44
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    At the 2001 World, during MK free skate, Peggy stated that Michelle tried a 3sal-3lp during the 5 minutes warm-up. How was it that ABC didn't have that footage? Didn't they usually let the camera roll during the warm-up period for someone like MK?

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    At the 2001 World, during MK free skate, Peggy stated that Michelle tried a 3sal-3lp during the 5 minutes warm-up. How was it that ABC didn't have that footage? Didn't they usually let the camera roll during the warm-up period for someone like MK?
    Most people seem to think that Peggy meant the last practice session before the free skate. Perhaps someone in attendance can confirm. Plenty of people saw her try 3sal-3loops and 3lutz-3loops in the fall of 2001. According to Dick Button, she also tried them in practices in the spring of '05 before a cheesefest.
    No footage out there.
    Last edited by Clay; 07-25-2011 at 05:46 AM.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    3lutz/3loop: Irina Slutskaya at the 99/00 GPF. It was cheated, but did get ratified by the ISU.
    Why wasn't her attempt at 97 worlds counted? It looked clean.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxFjl...tailpage#t=49s

  7. #47

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    I believe Slutskaya only landed a 3sal/3loop at 1997 Worlds.
    I can call the moon a pear, but it doesn't make it so. -- kwanfan1818

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by falling_dance View Post
    I believe Slutskaya only landed a 3sal/3loop at 1997 Worlds.
    Ah, right. Sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    Ah, right. Sorry.
    No need to be sorry. It's still an impressive combination (and I liked revisiting that performance).
    I can call the moon a pear, but it doesn't make it so. -- kwanfan1818

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyCurry View Post
    On this vid from the 1995 US nationals ladies LP warm-up, the commentator mentions a 3sal-3loop that Michelle was to attempt. Is it a mistake or did MK really plan that combo?
    Wow! That would've been an 8 triple program.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    Wow! That would've been an 8 triple program.
    But with the Zayak rule, the 8th triple wouldn't have counted, which is why it doesn't make sense.

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    I have no idea if she was really planning a 3sal/3loop but Michelle ALWAYS had a back up plan. So if she had done that combination then she would have left out one the other triples she did so to not break the Zayak rule.
    Last edited by BigB08822; 07-26-2011 at 06:36 AM.
    -Brian
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    ^ That program, in particular, had several alternate jump sets. If you watch every performance, from fall to spring, the content is similar but the lay out is different from performance to performance. She was in the nothing to loss phase of her career.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clay View Post
    Most people seem to think that Peggy meant the last practice session before the free skate. Perhaps someone in attendance can confirm. Plenty of people saw her try 3sal-3loops and 3lutz-3loops in the fall of 2001. According to Dick Button, she also tried them in practices in the spring of '05 before a cheesefest.
    No footage out there.
    With two 3Lz and a 3T+3T planned, Michelle couldn't do a 3S+3Lo anyway in her 2001 Worlds freeskate. Plus, I would argue Michelle would not throw a combination she never landed before in the biggest competition of the year, especially if she was coming from behind. FYI, ABC would have the tape, but good luck getting it.

    Even less plausible would be her doing it in 2005. The 3Lo had already left her jumping repertoire that season and if I recall she didn't want to risk a hip injury. I saw many of Michelles practices (some not public) and she never, ever threw a combination with a 3Lo on the end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by all_empty View Post
    With two 3Lz and a 3T+3T planned, Michelle couldn't do a 3S+3Lo anyway in her 2001 Worlds freeskate. Plus, I would argue Michelle would not throw a combination she never landed before in the biggest competition of the year, especially if she was coming from behind. FYI, ABC would have the tape, but good luck getting it.
    .
    Again, why are you assuming that Michelle's jumps could not have been changed? Michelle would have obviously left out the repeated lutz or she could have dropped the solo loop but I don't remember if the loop was before or after the salchow. Michelle constantly changed her plans according to how the program went. She almost always threw in an extra 3toe at the end if she missed her 3/3 combination, why is it so hard to think she couldn't omit a triple if she did an extra combination?
    -Brian
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  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigB08822 View Post
    Michelle would have obviously left out the repeated lutz or she could have dropped the solo loop but I don't remember if the loop was before or after the salchow.
    The loop was the first jump of the program at 2001 Worlds.
    I can call the moon a pear, but it doesn't make it so. -- kwanfan1818

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigB08822 View Post
    Again, why are you assuming that Michelle's jumps could not have been changed? Michelle would have obviously left out the repeated lutz or she could have dropped the solo loop but I don't remember if the loop was before or after the salchow.
    Assuming she had mastered the 3sal-3loop, she could open with that combo and then replace the solo 3sal by a 2axel..or open with a 2axel and do the 3-3 later in the program.

    Even better, keeping the opening 3loop, drop the second 3toe, and do the 3sal-3loop. Anyway, SOTBS was enough a masterpiece as it was, and it's probably pointless to talk about a virtual layout.

    Would have loved to see MK land another 3-3 than the 3toe-3toe though.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyCurry View Post
    Assuming she had mastered the 3sal-3loop, she could open with that combo and then replace the solo 3sal by a 2axel..or open with a 2axel and do the 3-3 later in the program.

    Even better, keeping the opening 3loop, drop the second 3toe, and do the 3sal-3loop. Anyway, SOTBS was enough a masterpiece as it was, and it's probably pointless to talk about a virtual layout.

    Would have loved to see MK land another 3-3 than the 3toe-3toe though.
    They were talking about her throwing that combo in at Worlds in 2001. By the time Michelle did her 3sal, she had already landed a 3T/3T so there was no way she could go back in time to omit the second 3T.

    I think she definitely showed up to those Worlds with the combo as a plan B depending on many things like skate order and how the opening of the program went. I think with her going ahead of Slute and with the program going so well up to that point that it was a no-brainer she would simply go for a clean skate and not risk the 3s/3r. The opening of Scheherazade the following season originally had a 3t/3t and a 3sal, which makes me think that they were hoping to open with two 3/3s. If Michelle hit the 3s/3r she could simply omit the loop in the slow section. Of course Scheherazade's jump layout changed a few times that season and she ended up opening with the loop.

  19. #59
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    Argh, I just wrote a long reply and it was deleted.

    I'll summarize:

    Anyone who's ever watched Kwan knows that she is very by the book. Her practices are very methodical -- predictable even. She would warm-up, do a runthrough, and usually leave before everyone else. In the second half of her career, there was very little Bonaly-esque jumping -- no pounding out triples one after another in practice. I think that's one reason why Kwan had such a long career.

    Similarly, her plan B was always the same. Choreograph a program so you can throw in a second 3T if needed. Had she done the 3T+3T and 3S+3Lo at 2001 Worlds, she would've had to omit her second 3Lz -- the hardest jump in her program and one she was very, very secure with at the time (few other ladies were trying 3Lz so late in their programs back then). I firmly believe the jump layout she did was the one she had planned, with the backup 3T ready if the 3T+3T failed. All this 3S+3Lo/take out the second 3Lz talk is frankly, hard for me to believe. Just too many variables and changes to her program.

    The only time she really toyed with layouts was 2002 (Goodwill Games, Skate Canada and Nats/Olys all had different layouts), and that probably hurt her more than it helped.

    However, if someone saw her practicing those layouts, I stand corrected. No one would believe me if I said I saw Julia Sebestyen hitting 3S+3Lo or Jennifer Robinson standing up on 3A attemps, but I did.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by all_empty View Post
    No one would believe me if I said I saw Julia Sebestyen hitting 3S+3Lo or Jennifer Robinson standing up on 3A attemps, but I did.
    But how badly cheated was Robinson 3A attempt? I have a mental image that she completed the rotations on the ice with a wildly swinging free leg.

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