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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by attyfan View Post
    Yes. 1998 Olys Ladies, IMO. While I agree with the results of the '96 Worlds ladies, I think that it would also be equally well judged if Chen Lu had been declared the winner.
    ITA. I would add to that the 97 ladies worlds competition. While I may have personally judged certain aspects of the competition differently, think the outcome was fair and the judging was fair, with ordinals all over the place.

  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    Not everyone thinks their favorite should win all the time no matter what. In this instance, my favorites in the competition were Lambiel and Abbott, neither of whom deserved to be on the podium as I see it, and Abbott should not have been close.
    That's not a good example. It didn't take a genius to figure out that Lambiel and Abbott didn't deserve to be on the podium, no matter how wonderful they are as skaters generally, their programs were tentative and riddled with errors. Plus my comment was about PCS, not overall placement.
    "Marge, if you're going to get mad at me every time I do something stupid, then I guess I'm just going to have to stop doing stupid things!" - Homer Simpson in the Mr. Plow episode

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    For example, this year's worlds. While there may have been a few things I disagreed with, the event as a whole was judged pretty well.
    I completely disagree. IMO, this year's worlds was one of the most poorly judged event ever. Aside from pairs, which was well judged, rest of 3 disciplines were judged terribly.

    It all started with Chan getting astronomical scores in SP. Sure, he did well enough to be placed comfortably in 1st, but the margin should have been a lot less. My impression was that the ISU was trying to ensure that Chan gets a world title no matter what he did in the FS.

    Ladies result was a joke. Ando has to be the most over-marked skater in the history of figure skating and her marks were inflated unprecedentedly in Moscow. She and Kim both did 5 triples with 2 Lutzes but Kim did a triple-triple and performed better spins, spiral, and footwork. No way Ando's TES should be higher than that of Kim. I don't even want to bother with PCS when Ando's coach has openly admitted that Ando does nothing except jumps in her programs. This is so obvious to everyone except ISU judges. Go figure.

    Ice Dance was also poorly judged. V/M should have won the gold easily. D/W did tons of difficult stuff, but that was just about all they did. They were missing the basic point of ice dancing IMO, which is a man and a women dancing to music. I felt no chemistry between themselves, nor with the music, not to mention the audience. D/W were rewarded for quantity rather than quality, which is the exact thing that is killing ice dance.

    Lastly, Weaver and Poje should have won the bronze instead of Shibutanis. Although I liked Shibutanis' programs this year, their performances in Moscow were lack luster and they should have never been placed ahead of Weaver and Poje who skated an excellent SD and a decent FD.

    To summarize, I question the integrity of outcomes in ladies and ice dance results and wonder whether Chan's astronomical SP marks had anything to do with them. It is also interesting to note that had Chan been marked reasonably in the SP, Canada might have ended up winning 2 gold medals in Moscow.
    Last edited by RumbleFish; 07-11-2011 at 04:21 AM.

  4. #84

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    1994 US Nationals, Pairs. This one seriously has to take the cake.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheylana View Post
    That's not a good example. It didn't take a genius to figure out that Lambiel and Abbott didn't deserve to be on the podium, no matter how wonderful they are as skaters generally, their programs were tentative and riddled with errors. Plus my comment was about PCS, not overall placement.
    You're missing the point entirely, which is that none of the medalists were my "favorites" so my criticisms in regards to the way the were judged in terms of PCS has nothing to do with favoritism towards them. It has to do with the performances they gave and the skills they displayed in relation to the PCS guidelines. I addressed this in the first part of my post, which you didn't quote. It's in fact an excellent example, because the skaters whose placements I questioned are not favorites of mine.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumbleFish View Post
    I completely disagree. IMO, this year's worlds was one of the most poorly judged event ever. Aside from pairs, which was well judged, rest of 3 disciplines were judged terribly.

    It all started with Chan getting astronomical scores in SP. Sure, he did well enough to be placed comfortably in 1st, but the margin should have been a lot less. My impression was that the ISU was trying to ensure that Chan gets a world title no matter what he does in the FS.

    Ladies result was a joke. Ando has to be the most over-marked skater in the history of figure skating and her marks were inflated unprecedentedly in Moscow. She and Kim both did 5 triples with 2 Lutzes but Kim did a triple-triple and performed better spins, spiral, and footwork. No way Ando's TES should be higher than that of Kim. I don't even want to bother with PCS when Ando's coach has openly admitted that Ando does nothing except jumps in her programs. This is so obvious to everyone except ISU judges. Go figure.

    Ice Dance was also poorly judged. V/M should have won the gold easily. D/W did tons of difficult stuff, but that was all they did. They were missing the basic point of ice dancing IMO, which is a man and a women dancing to music. I felt no chemistry between themselves, nor with the music, not to mention the audience. D/W were rewarded for quantity rather than quality, which is the exact thing that is killing ice dance.

    Lastly, Weaver and Poje should have won the bronze instead of Shibutanis. Although I liked Shibutanis' programs this year, their performances in Moscow were lack luster and they should have never been placed ahead of Weaver and Poje who skated an excellent SD and a decent FD.

    To summarize, I question the integrity of outcomes in ladies and ice dance results and wonder whether Chan's astronomical SP marks had anything to do with them. It is also interesting to note that had Chan been marked reasonably in the SP, Canada might have ended up winning 2 gold medals in Moscow.
    How quickly you've forgotten Kim's jump error in the short program, while Ando was completely clean. How quickly you've forgotten about Kim's single flip in the free skate. Plus Kim did score higher on the PCS by two points. Seriously, with your history of posts on FSU, do you expect anyone to believe you're objective with Kim vs. Ando (or any Japanese skater, for that matter).

    You say that the judges tried to ensure that Chan would win no matter what he did in the FS, but you fail to include that his FS was near perfect with two quads. Inflated scores isn't a good example of poor judging.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    How quickly you've forgotten Kim's jump error in the short program, while Ando was completely clean. How quickly you've forgotten about Kim's single flip in the free skate. Plus Kim did score higher on the PCS by two points. Seriously, with your history of posts on FSU, do you expect anyone to believe you're objective with Kim vs. Ando (or any Japanese skater, for that matter).
    Pleading to Nationalism does not make Ando a legitimate winner. There are plenty of novice skaters who perform better than her, and her PCS marks should be in high 40s or low 50s. Also, go and read the rule books again. IJS is designed to rewards skaters for what they do on the ice and not to deduct what they don't do.

    You say that the judges tried to ensure that Chan would win no matter what he did in the FS, but you fail to include that his FS was near perfect with two quads. Inflated scores isn't a good example of poor judging.
    If you had any ability read other people's posts and engage in a debate, you should notice that I didn't question Chan's win but him being quaranteed of a win after SP.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumbleFish View Post
    ...To summarize, I question the integrity of outcomes in ladies and ice dance results and wonder whether Chan's astronomical SP marks had anything to do with them. It is also interesting to note that had Chan been marked reasonably in the SP, Canada might have ended up winning 2 gold medals in Moscow.
    There's a difference between questioning the judging and questioning the judging system and the general direction of the sport. While I agree with many of your opinions, unfortunately, the judges did what they were supposed to do for the most part, according to the rules as they are now. I found both Yuna an Miki's skates seriously underwhelming, but I think they were more or less judged accurately for what they did. I personally would have had Yuna ahead, but on paper I can see how Miki edged her. Regarding D/W it was extremely close and it's simply a matter of opinion that you think they didn't have a connection. I normally prefer V/M but their FD simply was not as polished and seamless as D/W's which is reflected in the protocol. I can't stand Chan's skating or personality but he deserved every mark he got in that short program, it was one of the best I've ever seen and his scores are clearly justifiable if you watch the program and look at the score card.

    To summarize, I think Miki's win was lame and set back skating 15 years, but rules are rules. I sincerely hope for big changes that reward creativity and risk taking in the LP but as the rules are now, the judges pretty much did their jobs.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumbleFish View Post
    If you had any ability read other people's posts and engage in a debate, you should notice that I didn't question Chan's win but him being quaranteed of a win after SP.
    If you had any ability to do any of the above things you mentioned, you wouldn't have written this idiotic statement.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    To summarize, I think Miki's win was lame and set back skating 15 years, but rules are rules. I sincerely hope for big changes that reward creativity and risk taking in the LP but as the rules are now, the judges pretty much did their jobs.
    I agree with you that current judging system doesn't reward creativity and risk taking.

    But I beg to differ that even under the current IJS, judging in Moscow was plagued by misuses of GOE and PCS marks. Looking at judging sheets might mislead people to think that the judging was good, but if one tries to identify discrepancies between the sheet and actual performances, there will be plenty.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    If you had any ability to do any of the above things you mentioned, you wouldn't have written this idiotic statement.
    Welcome to my list of ignored posters.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumbleFish View Post
    To summarize, I question the integrity of outcomes in ladies and ice dance results and wonder whether Chan's astronomical SP marks had anything to do with them. It is also interesting to note that had Chan been marked reasonably in the SP, Canada might have ended up winning 2 gold medals in Moscow.
    This statement confuses me. Chan marked unreasonably in the SP guaranteed Canada one gold medal (according to your argument). How does reasonable (in this case, lower) marks make it more likely Canada wins two?

    I'm not quite convinced he was overmarked. You can make the case that his transitions and choreography marks were actually closer to the rest of the field than they should have been and everything was so spot on and fluid that I can see why the judges went to the upper registers for GOEs. He actually had slightly lower PCS for his Worlds SP than his GPF SP.

    As for Ando, I'll be frank, I didn't even bother watching her LP (Morosov tends to choreograph better SPs imo). She generally bores me. But I thought her Worlds SP was quite lovely. Maybe it's just the music talking, though.

    As for dance, I'd love to agree with you (that V/M were robbed/unfair judging) - I truly would, but I cannot.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    This statement confuses me. Chan marked unreasonably in the SP guaranteed Canada one gold medal (according to your argument). How does reasonable (in this case, lower) marks make it more likely Canada wins two?
    I don't want to go into details, as I find this as the ugliest part of figure skating. Since this is nothing new, you might want to review past history. You may agree or disagree, since it is only my hunch with no proof.

    I'm not quite convinced he was overmarked. You can make the case that his transitions and choreography marks were actually closer to the rest of the field than they should have been and everything was so spot on and fluid that I can see why the judges went to the upper registers for GOEs. He actually had slightly lower PCS for his Worlds SP than his GPF SP.
    IMO, Chan had been over-marked all through last season, not just SP at the Worlds.

    As for Ando, I'll be frank, I didn't even bother watching her LP (Morosov tends to choreograph better SPs imo). She generally bores me. But I thought her Worlds SP was quite lovely. Maybe it's just the music talking, though.
    The Mission soundtrack is a piece of music that does wonders covering up mediocre skating. No wonder it is one of the most preferred music for juniors and novices skaters at events such as regional and sectional legs of US Nationals.

    As for dance, I'd love to agree with you (that V/M were robbed/unfair judging) - I truly would, but I cannot.
    Like TripleButz said, V/M might have been lacking polish in their programs. However, D/W were missing the very core essence of ice dancing IMO, and it should have been more than enough to offset whatever lackings V/M might have had.
    Last edited by RumbleFish; 07-11-2011 at 06:59 AM.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumbleFish View Post
    Welcome to my list of ignored posters.
    You don't have to twist my arm.

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    I think RumbleFish is implying that Skate Canada politiked HARD for Patrick Chan. Had they just let Chan do his stuff and win without the supposed inflated mark through politiks, the judges might give the Gold to V/M?

    This is what I'm understanding is from reading RumbleFish's posts, not what I think did happen.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by walei View Post
    I think RumbleFish is implying that Skate Canada politiked HARD for Patrick Chan. Had they just let Chan do his stuff and win without the supposed inflated mark through politiks, the judges might give the Gold to V/M?

    This is what I'm understanding is from reading RumbleFish's posts, not what I think did happen.
    All I'm saying is that Chan and V/M deserved gold and Weaver/Poje the bronze in terms of skating IMO. Kudos to them.

    As for why only Chan got the deserved medal? I have a hunch but don't have conviction.

    Do people shoot themselves in the foot? Sometimes yes.

  17. #97
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    Men's 2010 Olympics, Dai should've been miles ahead over Plushenko and light-years away from that L.-guy ....

  18. #98

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    The one qualm my husband has always had with ice dance is that the outcome is usually decided before anyone skates. He was in it for several years and protocol judging is still alive and well. D&W skated cleanly and they were slotted to win. The only way they wouldn't have won is if they fell.

    ITA that W&P should have been higher up after all was said and done in '11 World's. I don't get the hooplala about the Shib's. I understand about D&W, P&B, V&M but the Shib's do nothing for me. Maybe I am sick of Shpilband's/ Zueva's choreography but feel D&W and V&M rise above the crap they are given but the Shib's aren't quite there yet...not sure. W&P and P&B are such great couples, with a maturity and finesse that the Shib's just don't have yet IMVHO. They are pleasant enough skaters to watch but them getting bronze is beyond my comprehension. I understand that P&B were out due to the fall but still don't get the Shib's winning bronze over W&P.
    ~I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it.~ (Charles R. Swindoll)

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    You just used a perfect example to describe what happened with the bronze medal. You said "D&W skated cleanly and they were slotted to win. The only way they wouldn't have won is if they fell." Well, let me tell you, P&B were slated to win bronze. The only way they wouldn't have is if they fell. And, they did.

    BTW, IDK how you can assert D/W were slotted to win when V/M won the SD..?

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight1 View Post
    The one qualm my husband has always had with ice dance is that the outcome is usually decided before anyone skates. He was in it for several years and protocol judging is still alive and well. D&W skated cleanly and they were slotted to win. The only way they wouldn't have won is if they fell.
    D/W skated like they had known this IMO. Rather than performing to the audience, they were trying hard to carry out stuff they had prepared and get through it. If we are contempt with status quo of protocol judging, there should be no problem. But I am stating my criticisms since we are discussing whether certain events were well judged or not.

    ITA that W&P should have been higher up after all was said and done in '11 World's. I don't get the hooplala about the Shib's. I understand about D&W, P&B, V&M but the Shib's do nothing for me. Maybe I am sick of Shpilband's/ Zueva's choreography but feel D&W and V&M rise above the crap they are given but the Shib's aren't quite there yet...not sure. W&P and P&B are such great couples, with a maturity and finesse that the Shib's just don't have yet IMVHO. They are pleasant enough skaters to watch but them getting bronze is beyond my comprehension. I understand that P&B were out due to the fall but still don't get the Shib's winning bronze over W&P.
    I had actually found Shibs' FD quite charming despite their lack of transitions and flow over the ice. In Moscow, however, they didn't skate their programs well at all. Their SD was scratchy and sloppy particularly in the GW section. Their FD totally lacked energy and flow hence should have been marked much lower. Disappointed look on their faces just after they had skated told the story for me.

    Weaver and Poje, OTOH, skated as well as they could in both SD and FD. They might not have power and coverage of V/M and D/W yet, but their performances were definitely highlights of 2012 Moscow Worlds for me.
    Last edited by RumbleFish; 07-11-2011 at 07:36 AM.

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