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  1. #181
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    To argue Yuna was overscored at 2010 Worlds, one must look at where her scores were derived from at that competition.

    Despite Yuna's 2 mistakes against Asada's one downgrade, Asada was only 0.5 point ahead technically. Also, 2010 was a year where GOE on triple jumps was worth a lot - and Yuna got deservedly high GOEs on the elements she executed well. On the elements she made her mistakes on, she was penalised fairly. The element scores were very well documented.

    In relation to her PCS, I must say her free last year brought out a lot of her strengths (flow, power, speed, ice coverage, ability to incorporate transitions and into her difficult elements too) and hid her weaknesses (line). On the other hand, Asada's program made her skating look slow, bland and heavy. Her program was not as complex. She was also markedly slower than Yuna. So I am not surprised by their respective PCS scores. Their PCS score differentials rightfully narrowed since the Olympics due to both Asada's improvement and Yuna's deterioration from their Olympic performances.

    Similarly, to argue Lepisto did not deserve the bronze, one must study where she got her points. 3-6th place was all very close. All of Ando, Phaneuf and Kostner beat Lepisto in the free. But Ando lost it in the short, Phaneuf lost it on PCS (and rightfully I must add even though I love her) and Kostner was already judged very generously given how she skated (3 faulty jump landings). Lepisto rightfully blew them away on PCS and caught up with Kostner with her superior components.

    The more interesting thing about 2010 Worlds was how Ando's PCS compared to Yuna's last season, and then again this season at Worlds when Asada was no longer a gold medal threat but she was.
    Last edited by Marco; 07-20-2011 at 08:24 AM.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post

    S/Z of course developed into one of the most charismatic pairs of all time but they were very far away from that in 2001...
    I disagree. They were two time World silver medallists and pretty charismatic already.

    There were three teams at Vancouver Worlds who performed far and away better than Sale and Pelletier in the SP. That they were given third (and almost second) after a major error was absolutely outrageous.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    Meh, it's not like B/S had a great reputation for being clean (which weakens Moskvina's usual dark mutterings). Without going back and looking at all the SPs as I recall S/P had better pairs quality than some of the cleaner pairs.

    5/4 is pretty weak as a conspiracy especially against a team that was noted (at the time) as being all about the big tricks with not much pairs quality and lots of technique problems that the audience didn't notice but the judges had to pay attention to.

    S/Z of course developed into one of the most charismatic pairs of all time but they were very far away from that in 2001...
    S/P had pair quality . S/P won because it was held in Canada and audience were mostly North American.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post

    Similarly, to argue Lepisto did not deserve the bronze, one must study where she got her points. 3-6th place was all very close. All of Ando, Phaneuf and Kostner beat Lepisto in the free. But Ando lost it in the short, Phaneuf lost it on PCS (and rightfully I must add even though I love her) and Kostner was already judged very generously given how she skated (3 faulty jump landings). Lepisto rightfully blew them away on PCS and caught up with Kostner with her superior components.
    I strongly disagree I'm sorry...115 points for a program with 3 triple jumps (2 of them being toe) is too high! you say that kostner's score were inflated...well..she skated a six triple program and the biggest mistake she had was was a step out on the loop; her steps are far superior to laura's (and anyone else I think), same thing for the spirals and she did good spins! Her PCS should have been a lot higher than laura's as the total score..but she was marked just a point above lepisto
    As for Ando...she skated the second best long program that night after Mao..She didn't put a foot wrong! Strong jumps and she was living the program!

    As for Mao's program well...it's a strange program but I think you can really appreciate it seeing it live! I did and IMO at worlds she was far superior! She wasn't slow at all! She attacked every note of the music, she gave me shiver...I preferred her a lot over yuna who gave me nothing...I remember that in the warm-up she impressed me a lot...she took the attention of everyone in the stadium. She didn't put a foot wrong and I thought that she would have destroyed the competition...but she did not. The jumps she performed right were top class (I cannot say the same for the other elements) but there was no spirit...a gost of the yuna of Vancouver..

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domshabfan View Post
    S/P had pair quality .
    You know? that whole two skating as one thing? Isn't that what kept B/S in front of S/Z despite the more spectacular nature of S/Z's tricks?

    I was never really a fan of S/P (or B/S I actually preferred P/T to both of them).

    and bringing up the nationalism card is definitely not cool...

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    You know? that whole two skating as one thing? Isn't that what kept B/S in front of S/Z despite the more spectacular nature of S/Z's tricks?

    I was never really a fan of S/P (or B/S I actually preferred P/T to both of them).

    and bringing up the nationalism card is definitely not cool...
    I agree with the notion that two skating as one, but i never saw S/P skate like that. Time and time again we were told by certain section of english media (see, i am not mentioning the countries) how superior S/P were, how brilliant their choreography are, etc. sorry, i could never see the superior pair quality they had over B/S.

    As for nationalism card, that was flavour of time(both 2001 and 2002), how to break russian domination in pairs, you could so see it from commentary of NBC commentary from sp at that 2002 games.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domshabfan View Post
    I agree with the notion that two skating as one, but i never saw S/P skate like that.
    As for nationalism card, that was flavour of time(both 2001 and 2002), how to break russian domination in pairs, you could so see it from commentary of NBC commentary from sp at that 2002 games.

    First point: fair enough, different strokes and all that. I didn't much like S/P but I thought they had the two as one down pretty well.

    Second: not living in NAmerica I was extremely fortunate to not have to listen to NBC commentary at the time (especially regarding slc lp). A lot of the us vs them hysteria was completely indefensible but that didn't start (or end) with S/P and B/S. But Moskvina's conspiracy mumblings irritate me as well especially since B/S were almost never super clean.

    One a scale of 1-10 with 1 being 96 ladies lp (Chen/Kwan) and 10 being 2008 (Nakiano slipping off the podium with the best lp of the night). I'd rate S/P's sp placement around a 3 (maybe 4) in bad judging. Home ice .... courtesies by the judges in their home country didn't begin or end with S/P (both German medals in 2004 were arguably host courtesy medals).
    On the other hand, I think the LP with S/P over B/S is pretty defensible (more of a 'reasonable people can disagree' result).

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanja90 View Post
    As for Mao's program well...it's a strange program but I think you can really appreciate it seeing it live! I did and IMO at worlds she was far superior! She wasn't slow at all! She attacked every note of the music, she gave me shiver...I preferred her a lot over yuna who gave me nothing...I remember that in the warm-up she impressed me a lot...she took the attention of everyone in the stadium. She didn't put a foot wrong and I thought that she would have destroyed the competition...but she did not. The jumps she performed right were top class (I cannot say the same for the other elements) but there was no spirit...a gost of the yuna of Vancouver..
    I heard similar things from others who watched it live. Interestingly, Sonia Biancietti, who usually loves Yuna's skating, echoed similar feelings over the results in her writeup that year.

  9. #189
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    At the end Mao won GOLD(yay! 2time World champ) Yuna gets Silver... I think its enough Yuna vs Mao in this thread.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxEObLwnTDU

    Interesting. I wish we had access to the reviews for every skater. Wouldn't that be fun?
    I can't tell you how many times I've wished I could know what the tech. panel was thinking with certain calls!

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    I can't tell you how many times I've wished I could know what the tech. panel was thinking with certain calls!
    I know. But I guess it would cause too much of a controversy to actually hear the discussion.

  12. #192
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    Ice Dance at 2011 Worlds has shown that in the absence of a well-defined hierarchy, the judges have absolutely no bloody clue whatsoever...

  13. #193

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    I would still love to hear a judge's explanation for Courtland/Reynolds over Kuchiki/Marval for the 1994 Olympic team (aside from reputation and longer pairing). C/R's high scores for that mess of a LP were a joke, and all the Olympic trip did for them was allow Karen to spend her time dishing on Tonya/Nancy to any reporter who would listen. Kuchiki and Marval were robbed.
    "Once you've skated together long enough, and you're really good friends, you can close your eyes, put your hand out and she's right there." Joe Dolkiewicz, 2011 US Novice Pairs Bronze Medalist

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanja90 View Post
    I strongly disagree I'm sorry...115 points for a program with 3 triple jumps (2 of them being toe) is too high!
    The point of IJS is rewarding every single element of the program accordingly and not judging the program based on your personal, general opinion.

    So if you think that 115 was too high, you should either point out what has been marked incorrectly or stop whining.

  15. #195
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    Laura only did 3 triples, but IMO she had deserved the best PCS of the comp, even better than Mao and Yu-Na. So IMO her bronze is well deserved.

    Sigh, if only Mirai did her double axel in the FS..she would have the bronze. Still saddens me to this day.

  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yazmeen View Post
    I would still love to hear a judge's explanation for Courtland/Reynolds over Kuchiki/Marval for the 1994 Olympic team (aside from reputation and longer pairing). C/R's high scores for that mess of a LP were a joke, and all the Olympic trip did for them was allow Karen to spend her time dishing on Tonya/Nancy to any reporter who would listen. Kuchiki and Marval were robbed.
    Wasn't there talk about Todd's father giving USFS a hefty contribution right before? I thought I'd heard that. But now looking back on this performance I can see that their presentation wasn't all that bad, kind of good, esp Todd. Kuchiki and Marval botched one throw and didn't really nail their program either. But then again, in what world does a pair FS with falls on both throws, two more random falls, missed sbs jump, and a general unsteadiness get 5.6 for technical? You'd have thought it was G/G. Hmmph.

  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    The point of IJS is rewarding every single element of the program accordingly and not judging the program based on your personal, general opinion.

    So if you think that 115 was too high, you should either point out what has been marked incorrectly or stop whining.
    I'm not a judge and maybe I expressed myself not in the proper way..I should have said that: In my opionion 115 points for a 3 triples program is too high...my problems were more with her PCS because popping half of your jumps affects your program and shoud affect the components I think...but laura's were quite high...I know she has very good quality skills and everything but that's just my opinion so no reason to go on with it...

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    The point of IJS is rewarding every single element of the program accordingly and not judging the program based on your personal, general opinion.

    So if you think that 115 was too high, you should either point out what has been marked incorrectly or stop whining.
    I think using the criteria, her components marks were justly earned. She deserved the 6 point advantage over Ando in PCS. Doubles are permitted, and she elected to do them. It is one of the pitfalls of IJS that judges cannot intervene against a program with bails (and no edge triples), but she was scored appropriately for the merits of her presentation.

  19. #199

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    Quote Originally Posted by Domshabfan View Post
    I agree with the notion that two skating as one, but i never saw S/P skate like that. Time and time again we were told by certain section of english media (see, i am not mentioning the countries) how superior S/P were, how brilliant their choreography are, etc. sorry, i could never see the superior pair quality they had over B/S.
    The notion that pairs should be always be 'two skating as one' is limited because some pairs programs are about two people and how they relate to each other. 'Love Story' was such a program and S/P clearly expressed the relationship between them and the tragedy that unfolded. There are many other examples, such as S/S's Pink Panther - two clearly defined individuals relating to one another, not two skating as one. Such programs are not necessarily inferior to those in which two skate as one.

    And I feel exactly about B/S as you do about S/P - I never saw how superior they were or how brilliant their choreography was. People go on and on about the complexity of their programs, particularly their Olympic LP, and I think that complexity is somewhat of an illusion. Moskvina is a master at creating interesting and beautiful shapes with her skaters' bodies and movements, but that doesn't mean the program is more difficult.

    I saw the two pairs as equal and enjoyed their rivalry. I'm one of the few who thought that S&Z should have won in 1999 (or 2000? the year they skated clean and B&S made mistakes). However, I loved B&S' Olympic SP and completed disagreed with the Canadian judge who put S&P in first place.

    As for nationalism card, that was flavour of time(both 2001 and 2002), how to break russian domination in pairs, you could so see it from commentary of NBC commentary from sp at that 2002 games.
    So what? Russia was always trying to maintain its domination in pairs. B&S were clearly being pushed as the next great Russian pair at the Nagano Olympics, when they were overscored (IMO) and almost beat D&K, who returned to competition as dark horses but to me were just so way ahead of B&S. If not for a late program error in the LP, B&S might have a won. And that would have been a travesty.

    There is plenty of politicking over pairs within Russia itself.

  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanja90 View Post
    I strongly disagree I'm sorry...115 points for a program with 3 triple jumps (2 of them being toe) is too high!
    So what score should she have gotten? Can you look at the protocol and inform me about which technical elements were judged incorrectly? Program components are separate from the technical content, so you can't link the fact that she did X number of triple jumps to getting a lower program components score as a result.
    Last edited by a56; 07-21-2011 at 08:30 AM.

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