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  1. #241

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    The notion that pairs should be always be 'two skating as one' is limited because some pairs programs are about two people and how they relate to each other. 'Love Story' was such a program and S/P clearly expressed the relationship between them and the tragedy that unfolded. There are many other examples, such as S/S's Pink Panther - two clearly defined individuals relating to one another, not two skating as one. Such programs are not necessarily inferior to those in which two skate as one.
    What you say about difference between 'two skating as one' and "programs that are about two people and how they relate to each other" is quite interesting and probably accurate.

    I think that very important part in pairs skating is the unison of the two, weather they are performing a side by side jump, pair spin or footwork section.

    During 2002 Olympics in LP S&P did not take off or land their side by side triple at the same moment. For me - that shows lack of unison. Both B&S and S&Z had the take off and landing at the same moment. And I think T&M as well.

    I've always preferred B&S but that particular season I was very impressed with LP S&P had put together. I think it was called The Orchid and it was to 2nd movement of Rachmaninoff's 2nd piano concert. They showed off all the things they, imo - improved about themselves in past seasons. I was so happy that Olympics were going to be so interesting since I already knew the Russians had a very complex LP.

    So when they pulled out Love story, program that was 3 years old, with crowd pleasing tricks and exactly the same spread sheet of elements as their 2001 LP... I usually think that when you can "cut" the program from element to element while watching it on tv for the very first time - that the choreography is not that good since there is nothing going on between the "big" elements.

    Can anyone tell me why did S&P drop The Orchid? I dont remember reading anything about it.
    Were they playing it safe?
    Was The Orchid too complex for them?

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosjenka View Post

    Can anyone tell me why did S&P drop The Orchid? I dont remember reading anything about it.
    Were they playing it safe?
    Was The Orchid too complex for them?
    The old GPF required teams to perform two different long programs, which caused S/P to resurrect Love Story. It got great marks from the judges and soundly defeated B/S so I think they decided to keep it going. I even remember Sarah Hughes practicing Turandot for the GPF and considering going back to it. She skated it at a USFS cheesefest and didn't skate very well which probably put the nail in that coffin.

    Also, S/P took Love Story to 4CC and again got really high marks and dominated so it probably seemed like a wise decision.

  3. #243

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    The old GPF required teams to perform two different long programs, which caused S/P to resurrect Love Story. It got great marks from the judges and soundly defeated B/S so I think they decided to keep it going.
    Hmm, that sucks that they may have gotten some mixed messages. Was there any overlap between the GPF and Olympic judging panels?
    "Marge, if you're going to get mad at me every time I do something stupid, then I guess I'm just going to have to stop doing stupid things!" - Homer Simpson in the Mr. Plow episode

  4. #244

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    Also, S/P took Love Story to 4CC and again got really high marks and dominated so it probably seemed like a wise decision.
    Didn't they skate to Orchid that nationals and have some problems with it?

    Orchid was there best program IMO. I was really disappointed when they dropped it.

  5. #245
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    Also S/P botched majorly at the Nationals with The Orchid even though they still won.

    I love the Orchid and was very sad that they didn't use it for the Olympic, I prefered it much much much more than the blergh Love Story.

  6. #246

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post


    1994 US Nationals, pairs.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0X7fa5PHsg

    I can't find the team that ended up 4th (kuchiki & marval?), but ... there are no words!
    I have to agree. I remember watching this on tv and just being in shock at their scores and placement.
    Logic is in the eye of the logician --Gloria Steinem

  7. #247

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    Quote Originally Posted by walei View Post
    Also S/P botched majorly at the Nationals with The Orchid even though they still won.
    Yes, I think they were up in the air about whether to go back to Love Story or stick with Orchid after the GPF, and then the bomb at Nationals was the nail in the coffin for Orchid.

    To whoever said that S&P went back to Love Story at 4CC, that's not correct - S&P did not compete at 4CC in 2002.

    I love the Orchid and was very sad that they didn't use it for the Olympic, I prefered it much much much more than the blergh Love Story.
    Me too, Love Story was my least favourite S&P program. I always thought it was weird that if they were going to go back to an old program, they chose the one would have had bad memories of a disastrous performance at Worlds (Love Story in 2000) over the program they won a World title with (Tristan & Isolde in 2001). Tristan & Isolde was probably the best and most interesting program they had in their career, so it's too bad they didn't use that one instead.

    Thinking about 2001 Worlds, I think that under a COP-type system where a team can carry over a lead from the short, B&S were better over the course of two programs. But with the rules in place at the time, I agreed with the placements in both the short and long program, so the right team won given the rules in place at the time. At least in my mind. But I can certainly see a good argument for B&S to win the free at that event, even if I personally would have given it to S&P. I agree with the posters that found Elena's lack of affect and seeming lack of interest in skating to be very distracting.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erin View Post
    I agree with the posters that found Elena's lack of affect and seeming lack of interest in skating to be very distracting.
    I see your point, but I thought Elena was very engaging during the 2001 Worlds performance. Of course she wasn't emoting like Anton, but I saw it in her.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  9. #249

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I see your point, but I thought Elena was very engaging during the 2001 Worlds performance. Of course she wasn't emoting like Anton, but I saw it in her.
    It's funny, but I always found Elena's expression, particularly her big sad blue eyes, to be something that drew me into her as a performer.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    The old GPF required teams to perform two different long programs, which caused S/P to resurrect Love Story. It got great marks from the judges and soundly defeated B/S so I think they decided to keep it going.
    At GPF, S&P only defeated B&S soundly because B&S fell once and S&P was clean.

  11. #251
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    I never really liked their orchid program. I guess it wasn't bad, but it always brought back memories of Chen Lu and her amazing Rachmaninoff program, and S and P didn't achieve nearly as much as she did with that music.
    That said, is there a reason why they didn't try to do an entirely new program? Didn't Plushenko come up with a new program after the GPF?

  12. #252

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    Quote Originally Posted by RumbleFish View Post
    1999 Worlds pairs result comes to mind.
    B/S made mistakes but were awarded gold over S/Z who skated 2 clean programs. At the time, S/P were not even in the picture and S/Z were considered closest rivals of B/S.
    B&S had just ONE mistake (not mistakes!)- a fall on sbs double axels in their LP. Rest of the program was skated brilliantly. S&Z skated clean but the presentation/artistry was practically non-existent. There were no transitions, their spins were poor and the unison was not good. Posture and lines were nonexistent. B&S got high marks for presentation (5.9 almost across the board) they deserved. Their choreography was intricate, the musical interpretation was superb, skating to a piece of music that was difficult to skate to. Their lines, posture, speed, unison were unmatched. Their technical marks were somewhat low (5.7's) because of that one mistake. They deserved to win because their artistically they were head and shoulders above everyone else.

  13. #253

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    The old GPF required teams to perform two different long programs, which caused S/P to resurrect Love Story. It got great marks from the judges and soundly defeated B/S so I think they decided to keep it going. I even remember Sarah Hughes practicing Turandot for the GPF and considering going back to it. She skated it at a USFS cheesefest and didn't skate very well which probably put the nail in that coffin.

    Also, S/P took Love Story to 4CC and again got really high marks and dominated so it probably seemed like a wise decision.
    That GPF (2001) was another poorly judged competiton in pairs. S&P had the crowd pleasing but choreographically easy Love Story. They had a fall on the sbs 3toes. B&S had a choreographically complex Valse Sentimentale for their second LP that went head to head with Love Story. Even with two minor mistakes (a single axel by Elena instead of a double, and a slight hand touch down on the throw 3 loop) B&S should have won. However, politics were in full swing by then. When S&P placed above B&S at worlds a few months later it was lesser of a shock because of the way this GPF was judged.

  14. #254

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macassar88 View Post
    I never really liked their orchid program. I guess it wasn't bad, but it always brought back memories of Chen Lu and her amazing Rachmaninoff program, and S and P didn't achieve nearly as much as she did with that music.
    That said, is there a reason why they didn't try to do an entirely new program? Didn't Plushenko come up with a new program after the GPF?
    Chen Lu's LP skated to that music was beautiful and sophisticated, and very few could match it, but it was a singles program, so I would not compare the two.

    S&P created a choreographically more complex LP in order to be competitive at the 2002 Olympics. It was choreographically better than any of their previous programs. The final pose was stunning. It seemed like earlier in the season they were doing well with it, but as the season progressed, they became less comfortable with it, particularly Jamie. After their poor skate at the Canadian nationals, from what I heard/read, she wanted to go back to Love Story. For them it was important to skate clean at the Olympics and for that they needed a program they were very comfortable with. I believe that's why they just went back to Love Story. They knew the judges liked it and the north American audience would love it because of the familiarity with the music. The program was not competitive at that point, IMO since it had become a couple years old. However, it helped them skate clean. With the more complex 'Orchid' program there was a big risk.

  15. #255
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    Vash01 to all your three posts

  16. #256

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    At GPF, S&P only defeated B&S soundly because B&S fell once and S&P was clean.
    I don't remember the first LP. but going into the second LP, the two pairs were tied. LP2 was the tie breaker.

    About the second LP you are wrong. S&P (Jamie) fell in their Love Story LP. B&S did not fall at all (not even close to a fall). I have it on tape.

    Also "soundly defeated" sounds odd. It wasn't 7-0 or 6-1. I will have to watch the tape (though I have always found it painful because it was not just a poorly judged competition; it was a politically judged one).
    Last edited by Vash01; 08-13-2011 at 06:58 AM.

  17. #257

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    I don't remember the first LP. but going into the second LP, the two pairs were tied. LP2 was the tie breaker.

    About the second LP you are wrong. S&P (Jamie) fell in their Love Story LP. B&S did not fall at all (not even close to a fall). I have it on tape.

    Also "soundly defeated" sounds odd. It wasn't 7-0 or 6-1. I will have to watch the tape (though I have always found it painful because it was not just a poorly judged competition; it was a politically judged one).
    I think Marco was referring to the 2001-2002 GPF, where B&S actually led S&P following the first LP, In the debut of Meditation , Elena had a double fall on the throw 3-salchow, and S&P had a strong(better than SLC), cleaner performance of Love Story. This led to a very decisive victory on their parts and IMHO a false sense of security concerning the strength of that program.

  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Chen Lu's LP skated to that music was beautiful and sophisticated, and very few could match it, but it was a singles program, so I would not compare the two.

    S&P created a choreographically more complex LP in order to be competitive at the 2002 Olympics. It was choreographically better than any of their previous programs. The final pose was stunning. It seemed like earlier in the season they were doing well with it, but as the season progressed, they became less comfortable with it, particularly Jamie. After their poor skate at the Canadian nationals, from what I heard/read, she wanted to go back to Love Story. For them it was important to skate clean at the Olympics and for that they needed a program they were very comfortable with. I believe that's why they just went back to Love Story. They knew the judges liked it and the north American audience would love it because of the familiarity with the music. The program was not competitive at that point, IMO since it had become a couple years old. However, it helped them skate clean. With the more complex 'Orchid' program there was a big risk.
    Sale & Pelletier's struggles with Orchid only prove how much harder it is to do a more choreographically intricate program, something that was sorely overlooked in the NA medias biased observations of the SLC competition.

  19. #259

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    Quote Originally Posted by escaflowne9282 View Post
    I think Marco was referring to the 2001-2002 GPF, where B&S actually led S&P following the first LP, In the debut of Meditation , Elena had a double fall on the throw 3-salchow, and S&P had a strong(better than SLC), cleaner performance of Love Story. This led to a very decisive victory on their parts and IMHO a false sense of security concerning the strength of that program.
    I think you are right. I thought we were talking about the 2001 GPF, but Marco was talking about the 2002 GPF. I think their sense of security about that program was not false, however, because they knew the judges were on their side, and skating clean was more important than having a choreographically intricate/risky program. I think there was a lot of behind the door stuff going on that time that we the fans may not be aware of.

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    I don't think S/P were incapable of performing a more detailed/intricate program like the Orchid because let's face it, the Orchid is pretty much mostly a rearranged version of Tristan & Isolde with a few different elements like the pair spins. S/P was able to perform T&I rather well in the 2000-2001 season.

    It's just an unfortunate turn of event (for Orchid fans like me) that they bombed Canadians with the Orchid and nailed Love Story at GPF.

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