Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 37 of 37
  1. #21

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    220
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe View Post
    Does anyone really believe USFS would release Emily to skate for Canada?
    What if prior to the official break up, Emily engaged willingly in reconciliation attempts? What if she did all that USFS asked and did her absolute best to keep the team together? Would they ever release her knowing that she did not initiate the break up? Kind of a consolation prize for patiently sitting out the past season waiting on Evan & being so willing to make the partnership work?
    I know this assumes a lot of facts we don't know are true, but I wondered if USFS would even consider such factors?

  2. #22

    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    2,186
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    3200
    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe View Post
    Does anyone really believe USFS would release Emily to skate for Canada?
    Could the US and Canada do a trade? Yankowskas for Davison?

  3. #23

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Sleep in heavenly peace, my BH
    Posts
    11,835
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    3986
    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Skatefan View Post
    Could the US and Canada do a trade? Yankowskas for Davison?
    Not exactly an even trade. Davison is a US citizen (he was born in California) and would not need a release from Skate Canada to skate for the US. Samuelson is not a Canadian citizen and has no compelling reason to switch countries.

  4. #24
    Internet Beyotch
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    NorCal
    Posts
    15,831
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    24804
    And it's not clear what his skating future is. We'd need to get a 'player to be named later' in addition for it to be a fair trade.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  5. #25
    I <3 Kozuka
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Vancouver/Seattle
    Posts
    19,213
    vCash
    730
    Rep Power
    44756
    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe View Post
    Not exactly an even trade. Davison is a US citizen (he was born in California) and would not need a release from Skate Canada to skate for the US. Samuelson is not a Canadian citizen and has no compelling reason to switch countries.
    Davison needs either a release from Skate Canada or to be granted an exception under rule 109. If granted an exemption, he could start doing international competitions as soon as it was granted, and Worlds 2012 as the first championships.

    There was word that Poirier did not want to leave his coach or rink, which suggests that any new partner would have to move to Canada to train with him. That would make her a Canadian resident, but under normal circumstances, even if she were granted permanent residency status, she couldn't apply for citizenship until she had been physically present in Canada for three out of four years. To get an exception under Rule 109, she needs to be resident for a year and have applied for citizenship. So she'd need expedited permanent residency status and an exception to apply for citizenship early and to compete in Sochi, she'd need an exception to the physical presence rule.

    USFS would have to apply for the exception for Davison. They'd look pretty greedy if they went to the ISU to ask for an exception for Davison, and refused to release Samuelson. I'm not sure if they want a repeat of the bitterness surrounding their refusal of Morgan Matthews, especially when they turned around and released her partner not that long after.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  6. #26

    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Prague and surroundings
    Age
    46
    Posts
    2,122
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    The ISU doesn't care about nationals as far as sitting out periods are concerned. Neither Blanchard nor Volosozhar needed a release from the Ukrainian Federation to compete internal competitions or nationals in Russia.

    Rule 109 applies because Volosozhar was granted Russian citizenship. She did need a release from the Ukrainian Federation to compete at 2011 Worlds, because according to rule 109, had they refused, she would have had to sit out for 24 months from her last ISU championships instead of 12 (with release), and the Russian Fed would have had to apply for an exception. However, she could have competed in other international competitions for Russia without release, if the ISU granted an exception.
    You are right abour pair skaters and ice dancers, however in case of the solo skaters they have to either never skated in any domestic event of the other member (which they have to state in special document) or have the release permission from the other member.

  7. #27

    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Prague and surroundings
    Age
    46
    Posts
    2,122
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Davison needs either a release from Skate Canada or to be granted an exception under rule 109. If granted an exemption, he could start doing international competitions as soon as it was granted, and Worlds 2012 as the first championships.
    It´s even more complicated, he can apply for am exception but only 2 years after the waiting period and if he is wanting to skate at Worlds 2012 he has to apply for it one month (30 days) before the event at least which is unfortunately in conflict with his 2 years period ends.

    The only way for him to start for the US in Nice is to have the Canadians YES permission.

  8. #28

    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Prague and surroundings
    Age
    46
    Posts
    2,122
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    Also, to be clear, an ISU Championship is: Worlds, Euros, and 4CCs on the Senior level. GP events, the GPF and any Senior B events are not ISU Championship events. They are ISU events.

    But I could be wrong about the GPF and I'm not sure about the Olympics because they are also under the control of the IOC and not just the ISU.
    Nope: GPs, JGPs and Finals are ISU events, as well Team Trophy or any other cheesefest under ISU flags. International events are international calendar events, nothing more. So the 1 year period is for all of them but Champs (and even for pairs and ID there is only 1 year period for Champs), 2 years period is for Champs in solo figure skating and all other ISU branches (short track and speed skating). Synchro World is different like usually, the skater should be taking part in synchro team for other federation but do not skate in other disciplines (including speed ST ones) in the same season for his original federation. But what he/she needs is an approval from his original member. He can switch back to his original country the year after.

  9. #29
    I <3 Kozuka
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Vancouver/Seattle
    Posts
    19,213
    vCash
    730
    Rep Power
    44756
    Quote Originally Posted by oubik View Post
    You are right abour pair skaters and ice dancers, however in case of the solo skaters they have to either never skated in any domestic event of the other member (which they have to state in special document) or have the release permission from the other member.
    There's nothing in Rule 109 text that states that this applies to pairs and dance teams only. 109.2.c. states (emphasis mine):

    in the case of a pair or an ice dance couple, one partner at least must be a citizen of the country of the Member for which the pair or dance couple competes. The other partner may be a citizen or resident of a country of any other Member. The residence and permit requirements and the waiting periods stated above in paragraph 2.b, (i), (ii), and (iii) and in paragraph 3 do not apply to such partner. However, if such partner has already represented another Member, regardless of the discipline, the permit from the Member the Skater represented is 105 required and the waiting period 12 months from the day of the last competition in which the Skater represented another Member applies;
    There would be no reason for this the wording to specify different rules for pairs and dance partners if the rule does not apply to singles skaters.

    Quote Originally Posted by oubik View Post
    It´s even more complicated, he can apply for am exception but only 2 years after the waiting period and if he is wanting to skate at Worlds 2012 he has to apply for it one month (30 days) before the event at least which is unfortunately in conflict with his 2 years period ends.

    The only way for him to start for the US in Nice is to have the Canadians YES permission.
    The rule itself does not state that the exception can only be granted after the waiting period, and not after the federation refusal, but that could be internal procedure.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  10. #30
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Cerro Torre
    Posts
    3,497
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    It's also worth noting that the Rule doesn't put the onus on a skater with dual citizenship to obtain the release from the first federation. Rather, it appears that the federation can put a block on the switch for a specified period of time, subject to any supervening decision by the ISU Council.

    In Davison's case, Skate Canada would have little reason to put a block on the switch. If it did, the ISU Council would almost certainly overrule it. The switch wouldn't be "contrary to the spirit and purpose of the Rule." It's not as if the USFSA were some upstart federation trying to build a national team from scratch by getting quickie citizenships. Davison was born in the United States and has held U.S. citizenship all his life.

    As far as I can tell, if Davison were healthy and paired up with Caitlin Yankowskas to skate for the U.S., they could participate in a Senior "B" as soon as they wanted to.

    (If only, if only.... )

  11. #31
    Internet Beyotch
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    NorCal
    Posts
    15,831
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    24804
    Quote Originally Posted by oubik View Post
    Nope: GPs, JGPs and Finals are ISU events, as well Team Trophy or any other cheesefest under ISU flags.
    But they aren't ISU championships. The point is that certain events count more and will cause a longer sitting out period. Team Trophy and ISU cheesefests and GP events most definitely are not championship events and don't require the longer wait.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  12. #32

    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Prague and surroundings
    Age
    46
    Posts
    2,122
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    But they aren't ISU championships. The point is that certain events count more and will cause a longer sitting out period. Team Trophy and ISU cheesefests and GP events most definitely are not championship events and don't require the longer wait.
    That´s what I said and what you have said, too. I was re-read your initial post and we both telling the same which I was omissing first, sorry.

  13. #33

    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Prague and surroundings
    Age
    46
    Posts
    2,122
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    There's nothing in Rule 109 text that states that this applies to pairs and dance teams only. 109.2.c. states (emphasis mine):


    Loot at the ISU Communication no 1420 with more specifications on these items.

  14. #34
    I <3 Kozuka
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Vancouver/Seattle
    Posts
    19,213
    vCash
    730
    Rep Power
    44756
    Quote Originally Posted by oubik View Post
    Loot at the ISU Communication no 1420 with more specifications on these items.
    Thank you for the communication number.

    1420 specifies the deadline by which the federation must apply on behalf of the pair or dance skater who has not been given a release, which is no later than 30 days before the start of the competition and no earlier than after the skater is eligible to compete. As you pointed out, without a release, Davison would not have 30 days before the start of Nice Worlds for the US to request an exception, were Skate Canada to refuse to release him.

    However, I don't see anything in that release that specifies that Rule 109 applies to pairs and dance skaters. Like in Rule 109, Communication 1420 has separate provisions for pairs and dance skaters.

    For example, the deadline for applying for an exception is 1 July. However, as A.c. reads:

    For skaters who are applying for clearance in accordance with paragraph 2.c) of the rule, (pairs and dance couples), Members may file the application at any time. Of course, if the waiting period of 12 months applies, the application can be filed only after such period has been reached.
    There would be no reason to make a rule with a deadline of 1 July and an exception for pairs and dance skaters where one skater is not a citizen if the entire rule applied to pairs and dance only.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  15. #35
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    1,520
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Skatefan View Post
    Could the US and Canada do a trade? Yankowskas for Davison?
    Hahaha. I think this would not be as popular in figure skating as it is in baseball... I can already see the grumbling about the off-season break ups. Imagine if CAN, USA, JPN, CHN, etc could trade dancers. It would be worse. Fans would be mad because it would take some of the personal drama out of these situations, which is half the reason why ice dancing is on television.

  16. #36

    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Prague and surroundings
    Age
    46
    Posts
    2,122
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Thank you for the communication number.

    1420 specifies the deadline by which the federation must apply on behalf of the pair or dance skater who has not been given a release, which is no later than 30 days before the start of the competition and no earlier than after the skater is eligible to compete. As you pointed out, without a release, Davison would not have 30 days before the start of Nice Worlds for the US to request an exception, were Skate Canada to refuse to release him.

    However, I don't see anything in that release that specifies that Rule 109 applies to pairs and dance skaters. Like in Rule 109, Communication 1420 has separate provisions for pairs and dance skaters.

    For example, the deadline for applying for an exception is 1 July. However, as A.c. reads:



    There would be no reason to make a rule with a deadline of 1 July and an exception for pairs and dance skaters where one skater is not a citizen if the entire rule applied to pairs and dance only.
    Sorry, maybe we are discussing too many points together. I don´t think we are in disagreement here. Generally, there are two different periods for single skaters and those for Pairs and dance as well as the deadlines. If you are a single skater, you have to apply before July 1st for next season, after this date you are finished and have to wait for another season. However for pairs and dance the application should be made anytime in the year and waiting period is year + 1 day from your last international competition. But your partner has to ne a citizen of your "new" country.

    Also for single skaters, if you are not a citizen of your new fed you have to have approval from the country of your origin, no matter if you had ever skated for them internationally, only in cases you were not, this approval could be exchanged by you/your parents declaration you were never participated in national events of your country of origin (hope I made this clear and understandable, cause it´s really complicated).

    In Davison´s case we are talking about skater in pairs discipline, so only 1 year waiting period applied since Worlds 2010, however if he would not be released by Skate Canada, he has to wait two years at least and then ask ISU for exception having dual citizenship. But this application would be used only for a competition which starts 30 days after the application was made which is making his trip to Worlds 2012 impossible.

    All of this if I understand the rules how they are written.

  17. #37
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Cerro Torre
    Posts
    3,497
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by oubik View Post
    In Davison´s case we are talking about skater in pairs discipline, so only 1 year waiting period applied since Worlds 2010, however if he would not be released by Skate Canada, he has to wait two years at least and then ask ISU for exception having dual citizenship. But this application would be used only for a competition which starts 30 days after the application was made which is making his trip to Worlds 2012 impossible.

    All of this if I understand the rules how they are written.
    As a dual citizen, Davison does not have to obtain a release from Skate Canada in order to skate for the United States. Rule 109(2)(b)(i) applies only to skaters who do not have dual citizenship. The Rule is a little bit opaque insofar as they apply to dual nationals, but even if the first federation can try to block the skater, it is clear that the skater can apply for an exception from the ISU Council at any time. As I mentioned upthread, there is no apparent basis for turning down an application from Davison (if he makes one), since he was born in the United States, and the USFSA is not an upstart federation trying to create a national team from scratch.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •