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  1. #21

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    First, let me say I don't attend church regularly, but always enjoy the experience when I do -- regardless of the type of service or religion.

    I was raised Catholic, though definitely not strict, as my family did not attend church regularly. Our church had a crying room. Like LilJen's description, most parents/families knew when to take the child to the crying room. This church was NOT a mega-church, by any means.

    Tolerance is a good lesson.

    That means tolerance for children, special needs children and adults, the handicapped, and anyone and anything else, including so-called Mega-churches that choose to practice religion in a way that others may not agree with.

    I hope this family finds a parish that accepts their child and where they feel welcome.

    O-

  2. #22

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    You know, this makes me incredibly sad. You would think that this would be the one place where the kid would be embraced. Is the message of Christ not to love and embrace everyone? This is a special needs child and he gets thrown out of church for making noise...wow, no wonder so many people do not want to go to church these days.

    When I was in middle school and high school, there was a girl with cerebral palsy in the choir with us. She came on the stage for every performance and while some people might think she detracted for the singing, it never occurred to me to say she shouldn't be there.
    Logic is in the eye of the logician --Gloria Steinem

  3. #23
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    My former pastor used to say in his eyes, the primary focus of ministry had to be children. So when he did church planting, he always started by offering Sunday school instead of traditional worship services. Down the road he would add in worship, and he would tell adults they were welcome to attend as long as they didn't distract the children .

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayar View Post
    Well, I am one who thinks it's not fair to everyone else who is sitting there wanting to be part of the service. If a rowdy person-handicapped or not- interrupts my theater experience, I would ask to have them removed.
    I think rowdy at a theater is a bit different than someone born handicapped at Easter mass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen View Post
    You know, this makes me incredibly sad. You would think that this would be the one place where the kid would be embraced. Is the message of Christ not to love and embrace everyone? This is a special needs child and he gets thrown out of church for making noise...wow, no wonder so many people do not want to go to church these days.

    When I was in middle school and high school, there was a girl with cerebral palsy in the choir with us. She came on the stage for every performance and while some people might think she detracted for the singing, it never occurred to me to say she shouldn't be there.
    I'll bet those memories are highlights for her and her family. My sister's favorite hs times were spent with her special ed classmates. I've posted a few times before that my sister is mentally handicapped. I grew up watching people mock her to her face and be mean to her - adults were just as bad as students. For her high school graduation, a group of parents decided they didn't want 'the stupid retards' up on stage with their precious 'normal' children. I'll never forget my dad's reaction when he heard that one.

    So, my skin is a little thinner than other people's when it comes to stories like this. Knowing this child was removed from a church service is just appalling to me. And we can call it what we want, ask that people be removed from our perfect world, or edit our posts with a 'nevermind', but in the end, I guess Elevation needs to practice what they should be preaching?

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    It seems to me a church experience and a theatre experience are very different things.
    Naw. It's all about make believe. Same thing in my eyes.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    Isn't removing a child from church the exact opposite of abuse? (I still feel pain from those wooden benches...)



    It's all very bizarre. Then again, I find religion bizarre.

    As for mega-churches, I think a lot of them are scams.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    My former pastor used to say in his eyes, the primary focus of ministry had to be children. So when he did church planting, he always started by offering Sunday school instead of traditional worship services. Down the road he would add in worship, and he would tell adults they were welcome to attend as long as they didn't distract the children .


    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    It seems to me a church experience and a theatre experience are very different things.
    Aren't both based on works of fiction?
    It's official. I am madly in love with Meryl Davis.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbell1 View Post
    And we can call it what we want, ask that people be removed from our perfect world, or edit our posts with a 'nevermind', but in the end, I guess Elevation needs to practice what they should be preaching?
    Since I was the one who put "nevermind" I will respond to you. I edited my post because I was pretty sure that the PR police would deliberately misunderstand my post. It's the same reason why I don't post in PI.

    Let me preface by saying that I used to be a caseworker with Child Welfare & my entire caseload was children with either Down's Syndrome or CP or other physical &/or mental limitations. These are children whose families rejected them because they weren't perfect. But these children were not clones of each other. Each child was different. Some could have sat in a church service & have gotten something out of it. Others were too severly retarded mentally to even understand where they were or why they needed to be quiet.

    None of us know anything about this child or how disruptive he was being or how cognitive he is. Several people have made the assumption that "he wasn't being that loud". How do you know? Maybe he was having a screaming fit. The article only gives the mother's side of the story. What makes anyone think that church leaders would just without sufficient reason eject the child? People have even speculated that they were just in it for the money, which is pretty insulting to a church none of us know anything about.

    I have been in church where a baby cried for awhile & the parents just sat there & a deacon would come along & ask the mother to take the child out. Why is that ok if a child is "normal" but not ok if the child has special needs? Maybe they were treating him like they would have treated any other child.
    Last edited by taf2002; 06-13-2011 at 03:17 AM.

  9. #29
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    Taf, what do you think about the church refusing to allow the mother to organize a separate ministry for the disabled?

    I'm also curious why you think if the child were severely cognitively disabled, he necessarily wouldn't get anything out of it. Isn't the feeling, however vague it may be, of being in the midst of fellowship enough? Just because one may or may not understand the words sung or spoken doesn't mean one may not enjoy simply being part of a larger body, no? So many people I know don't sing along and tune out during the sermon, but somehow the service is still meaningful for them.

  10. #30

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    If this church can't deal with interruptions and disruptions, then they really can't deal with God, because life with God is full of both IME.

  11. #31

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    As someone mentioned, mega-churches are in ways more like theatres than traditional small churches. They are run like businesses selling the multimedia "experience" to parishioners.

    People are more likely to attend church on Easter, so I bet this church saw it as an opportunity to attract more parishioners. They probably pulled out all the stops in planning and preparing the day.

    I don't know how big this mega-church is, but some mega-churches are like stadiums. At a small church, people would be able to see the source of the noise and see that it's a wheelchair-bound child and understand. Not so in a stadium-size church where you can't even see the pastor.

    Essentially, the child ruined (too strong a word but you get the gist) the church's biggest show of the year.

    I'm not condoning this attitude, just offering an explanation.

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    Taf, what do you think about the church refusing to allow the mother to organize a separate ministry for the disabled?
    Again, I'm a little fuzzy on the details. But apparently the mother was new to the church, and as some people have pointed out, it would be unusual for a church -- or any organization -- to let someone start a children's program there if she was brand new there and they didn't know her.
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  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazpacho View Post
    Essentially, the child ruined the church's biggest show of the year.
    If this is really what some people who attended think, I feel sorry for them.

  14. #34
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    Taf - Too bad you edited your post.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyliefan View Post
    Again, I'm a little fuzzy on the details. But apparently the mother was new to the church, and as some people have pointed out, it would be unusual for a church -- or any organization -- to let someone start a children's program there if she was brand new there and they didn't know her.
    I've read a couple articles on this, and I didn't see it mentioned she was new. Where did you hear that? The articles I've seen said a church staff member told a news reporter directly their focus is on worship and not on ministry. Considering this is a seeker church, that mentality would fit.

    I would add that after this became public, the pastor called a disability organization requesting training for his staff. The pastor reportedly refused to meet with the mom though.

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbell1 View Post
    Taf - Too bad you edited your post.
    IOW, if I don't agree with you my opinion is worthless.

  17. #37

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    My son is developmentally challenged and many assume he is dumb because he can't talk and is disuptive in most social situations due to a disorder of the corpus callosum. He is cognitively, behaviourally, and fine motor delayed but he soaks in his surroundings and remembers things.

    I find it pathetic that a church would remove a child with cerebral palsy. esp given that someone with cerebral palsy is not necessarily cognitive delayed so he could have gotten a great deal out of the service. I wish people understood that a disability does not equate to mental retardation. They can coincide but they can be quite seperate.
    ~I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it.~ (Charles R. Swindoll)

  18. #38

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    Twilight, even if this child was mentally retarded, it wouldn't change my view. The church had no place removing the child.

  19. #39

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    You misunderstood my post, I was specifically commenting on Cerebral Palsy because that is what that child had but I also don't agree with removing a special needs child from church.

    It goes against everything Christianity is based on.
    ~I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it.~ (Charles R. Swindoll)

  20. #40
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    For those interested, here's the pastor's take on the purpose of church.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wILP...e_gdata_player

    It's somewhat typical of seeker church mentality--emphasis on evangelism and not ministry or discipleship.

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