Skaters retiring due to impression that judges have "dropped" them?

[VIETgrlTerifa]

If you're talking about the 2006 Japanese Nationals, then I have to say that Yoshie Onda gave my personal favorite LP performance at that championship and it was one of the best performances that whole season, to be perfectly honest. Yeah, it probably wasn't COP-friendly and her skating was inferior to that of the top contenders, but man did she win me over by the end of her career. I remember starting to enjoy her skating when she moved to Audrey Weisiger in the 2004-2005 season and had that awesome SP.

[Proustable]

I also don't think B&K had anything to complain about. Their OD at 98 Olympics was lazy and sloppy and just trying to be crowd pleasing. And even though I really liked their Riverdance FD, it just wasn't performed very well (they were much better at the following Worlds). Then they had injuries which really took them out of the running. But they did persist. As much as I didn't really think much of their FD when they won Worlds, they really skated it very well and I could see why it won.

I tend to agree. But I'd agrue that in this case, it's almost cyclical. They felt they weren't getting the respect they felt they deserved from the judges. So consequently (post-Nagano), they didn't seem to work as hard to improve. Other teams did. Then they lost a season (the 1999/2000 season) - which saw the rise of Fusar-poli/Margaglio and Lobacheva/Averbuch (and Drobiazko/Vanagas, but really, that was a fluke medal and they deserved so much more). I'm glad they won worlds when they did (cause really, Lobacheva/Averbukh having two titles is one too many)

[TheIronLady]

I don't think skaters get dumped...

These days I don't think it is in anybody's interest to push retirement at the international level, but I guess it might be at the national level when your country only has one spot for Worlds.

B&K... OD at 98 Olympics was lazy and sloppy and just trying to be crowd pleasing. And even though I really liked their Riverdance FD, it just wasn't performed very well...

This is so true.

Then they had injuries which really took them out of the running. But they did persist. As much as I didn't really think much of their FD when they won Worlds, they really skated it very well and I could see why it won.

Do you think Lobacheva and Averbukh's Bird Is the Word dance was underappreciated?

[blue_idealist]

I tend to agree. But I'd agrue that in this case, it's almost cyclical. They felt they weren't getting the respect they felt they deserved from the judges. So consequently (post-Nagano), they didn't seem to work as hard to improve. Other teams did. Then they lost a season (the 1999/2000 season) - which saw the rise of Fusar-poli/Margaglio and Lobacheva/Averbuch (and Drobiazko/Vanagas, but really, that was a fluke medal and they deserved so much more). I'm glad they won worlds when they did (cause really, Lobacheva/Averbukh having two titles is one too many)

I thought Bourne and Kraatz did improve but didn't really get any credit for it. IMO, the programs they skated at the 2002 Olympics (the tango/flamenco OD and the Michael Jackson FD) were the best programs they'd ever done, far superior to those of 1998.

[Pratfall]

And of course , the reverse question begs to be asked..Were the "dropped" skaters previously advanced a bit prematurely because of hype or on the strength of promise ?

[Carmen Ovsiannikov]

Yeah, it seemed they were totally dumped for Anissina and Peizerat, Fusar-Poli and Margaglio, and Lobacheva and Averbukh (although they did win Worlds over L & A once). Although I think they deserved to lose to A & P often, I think in general they DIDN'T deserve to lose to the other two teams I mentioned.

For the most part I agree that B&K shouldn't have finished behind F/P&M and especially L&A all that often. But in a couple of cases both teams fairly (IMO) finished ahead of B&K. For F/P&M they really in the 99/00 and 00/01 seasons. In the 99/00 season B&K had horrible programs and Shae-Lynn was injured. I remember some fans and the NA commentators blaming the rise of D&V, L&A and F/P&M on B&K being punished for their comments on block judging the previous season. For me it was clear that B&K were not at their best and I'm not sure who signed off on those programs. I'd place the Harry Connick piece and the "Latin" OD in the same category as the "Greased Lightning" OD from 1998. IMO B&K were lucky they didn't place lower than they did during the GP.

I do think F/P&M should have dropped back in the pack for the 01/02 season while D&V should have moved forward. Even without Maurizio's fall in SLC F/P&M didn't deserve the bronze. I feel it should have gone to D&V.

Looking back I was a glad as a fan of L&A that they won the bronze in 2001 but in retrospect B&K could/should easily have taken that spot. It was in the 01/02 season where I felt that L&A's programs were superior (dubious subject matter in the FD notwithstanding). I think L&A's Olympic silver and World gold were deserved.

I don't think skaters get dumped but agree with the comments that there are younger competitors who end up overtaking them. Or they have given the judges reason to place them lower.

......

Yeah, these days I don't know why a sane judge would want to encourage skaters to go away, even in ice dance. It is not in anybody's interest to push retirement at the international level, but I guess it might be at the national level when your country only has one spot for Worlds.

.....

I do think skaters get "dumped" and at times it is because those skaters have peaked or even fallen behind while younger teams have improved and at times (IMO) it's because those skaters might still be competitive but other teams get more of a push behind them from coaches and federations.

I don't think the judges dumping certain skaters neccesarily has anything to do with the judges encouraging a team to go away. Rather those "dumped" skaters end up retiring because they feel they will no longer be allowed to compete on an even field. We can only speculate as to whether or not that would have held true or not.

Pratfall, you raise a valid point about some teams being given a push by the hype and excitement surrounding them when they first enter the senior division.

[judgejudy27]

I dont think there are many major events that Bourne & Kraatz deserved more than the bronze, and IMO there are quite a few there were other possible teams who also deserved the bronze so I dont think overall they were really underrated.

1996-1998: Gritschuk & Platov and Krylova & Ovsiannikov were both clearly better teams during this period. Anissina & Peizerat were quite closely matched with them as well. They still managed to win the 97 Grand Prix final in an upset over a well skating K&O as well.

1999 Worlds: They were injured and made 2 mistakes in their free dance including a slip/semi fall near the end. They were lucky to win the bronze over Lobacheva & Averbuhk who skated all phases of the event well and cleanly.

2000 Grand Prix final: They were a mess this season, and they finally made their long overdue coaching stage. Their last place finish of 5 teams at the GP final behind the 3 teams we are talking of and Drobiazko & Vanagas was the correct result here.

2001 Worlds: Anissina & Peizerat and Fusar-Poli & Margalio were clearly better at this event. Possibly they deserved to beat Lobacheva & Averbuhk for the bronze, but possibly Drobiazko & Vanagas deserved to beat both teams for the bronze. Not an obvious wuzrobbed.

2002 Olympics: Anissina & Peizerat were again clearly superior. Lobacheva & Averbuhk were gifted majorly in the compulsories, but had a superior OD while Bourne & Kraatz fell in their FD, so no real argument for beating them either. Bourne & Kraatz probably deserved to beat Fusar-Poli & Margalio who won the bronze. However Drobiazko & Vanagas were again robbed, even moreso than the 2001 Worlds. They skated wonderfully and deserved the bronze or silver here. No way did either the Italians or Bourne & Kraatz deserve to beat them both with falls in their free dance.

2002 Worlds: the unofficial real top 3 of Lobacheva & Averbuhk, Bourne & Kraatz, and Drobiazko & Vanagas were all a toss up for the top 3 spots here really. I actually felt D&V had the best final free dance performance to be honest. They could have been given the gold but I didnt feel they were obviously wuzrobbed with the silver either.

2003 Worlds: this time they won in a close decision with L&A which I agreed with their win this time.

I think overall they were rated by the judges about right. Teams like Fusar-Poli & Margalio and Lobacheva & Averbuhk were propped up at times by the judges more than B&K being held down.

I liked Bourne & Kraatz but they were never going to be a Virtue & Moir or even Davis & White. They definitely had the basic skating and edge quality, they were creative and interesting, and worked hard to improve their whole career (other than the 99-2000 funk). However they never had the technical astonishment, polish and peerless unision, or the captivating magic to dominate and win a string of major titles. They were mostly a 3rd or 4th place kind of team and that is how they were scored.

[arakwafan2006]

Ah, but how did the commentator know that the message from the judges might not have been "Fix your landing technique" rather than "Go away and don't come back."

Not go away and fix it?

[zotza]

I tend to agree. But I'd agrue that in this case, it's almost cyclical. They felt they weren't getting the respect they felt they deserved from the judges. So consequently (post-Nagano), they didn't seem to work as hard to improve.

I think that B/K were at that point, a victim of their own hype.
They entered the scene with a bang and I've always felt that it was too much of a push for a team that just wasn't ready.In 1995 they seemed fresh and different from other teams, I really liked their exhibition back then,but the hype around them,imo, was more than their actually abilities.
It's not that they didn't win medals,they were a steady bronze medalist for the next few years but it was only than predictable that they had to lose to A/P at Nagano.A/P were simply better that season, and maybe even the season before.

I guess that they believed they deserved more and were dissapointed.Or the judges expected more from them but just didn't see them improving.Generally,when judges give a boost to a new team it's because for some reason they have high expectations.If the couple doesn't meet these expectations soon enough,they usually drop in the rankings.

Re their programs.I always thought they were skating the same thing year after year,changing music and all.'Meet her at a love parade' was a mistake,you need to be a very gifted off the ice dancer to perform adequately something like that.And it seemed that for a while they just settled for what made them popular in Canada.But this is my personal problem with most of the Canadian skaters.Skating is loved in their country,there are very loyal fans,and sometimes they don't feel the need to get outside the cocoon.

But anyway,B/K didn't leave even when they felt they were being dropped,and turned it around.They have really improved when it mattered.

[geoskate]

Meet her at a love parade' was a mistake,you need to be a very gifted off the ice dancer to perform adequately something like that.

It possibly was a mistake, but it's also my absolute favourite among all their free dances.

Successful dances (i.e. ones that are in line with a team's skill level, showcase those skills well and go over well with the judges) aren't necessarily the most memorable programs from a team.

[Pratfall]

My sister and I always felt that their biggest mistake with "Met her at the Love Parade" was that they didn't go all the way and dress more like La-la-la Human Steps..you know, sort of eclectic and punkish. I remember at the time, when people were talking up the new program, they mentioned the dance group as inspiration , so why those costumes ? We found it strange..and sad that they missed a chance to make a really memorable statement.

Oddly, these many years later with C/P's Dean choreography..same thing. We thought the program would have been so much more effective in street clothes or a simplified , modern dance-like version of street clothes..In both cases the costumes struck us as strangely out of touch, and out of sync with the music and program.

[overedge]

They were mostly a 3rd or 4th place kind of team and that is how they were scored.

Interesting world that you live in.....

[judgejudy27]

Interesting world that you live in.....

The real World apparently since most in this thread seem to feel the same way.

[overedge]

The real World apparently since most in this thread seem to feel the same way.

If you choose to read it that way, then, yes, I suppose it would say that.

[Aussie Willy]

My sister and I always felt that their biggest mistake with "Met her at the Love Parade" was that they didn't go all the way and dress more like La-la-la Human Steps..you know, sort of eclectic and punkish. I remember at the time, when people were talking up the new program, they mentioned the dance group as inspiration , so why those costumes ? We found it strange..and sad that they missed a chance to make a really memorable statement.

Oddly, these many years later with C/P's Dean choreography..same thing. We thought the program would have been so much more effective in street clothes or a simplified , modern dance-like version of street clothes..In both cases the costumes struck us as strangely out of touch, and out of sync with the music and program.

I disagree the costumes had anything to do with how the program was viewed. They kept the costumes simple which provided no distractions to what they were meant to do on the ice. Which is how it should be. It was not an artistic competition where costumes would matter. And in terms of judging it was the last thing the judges would have been looking at. I have found the clip on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3F3DP1u_Co

As a program I really liked it, but you could tell that Shae-Lynn had been injured and they didn't skate it to their full potential. On rewatching the program doesn't stop moving and it has oodles of content which kind of kept in character with the music. But at times you feel they lose the connection with the music. And it looks like hard work (as you can tell by Victor's expression at the end).

Also on reflection it almost looks like a training exercise. That is the kind of music you use in a figure session to create mood for skaters to warm up to. So I am not sure that it really worked as a program because the repetition of moves look like drills.

Still I think they were brave to put a program like that out there and good on them for doing it.

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I agree. Although punk/street clothes (something neon and rave-ish) would've definitely worked for "Meet Her at the Love Parade", I thought the costumes that B/K wore worked for the music and choreography.

Anyway, "Meet Her at the Love Parade" is probably my favorite routine by B/K...by far.

[geoskate]

I liked this version better - earlier in the season, and I think it had more of the original choreography. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LywDzZa3Xqo

Like Dean's program for C/P this year, this is a program that I think didn't improve over the season.

[Aussie Willy]

I liked this version better - earlier in the season, and I think it had more of the original choreography. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LywDzZa3Xqo

Like Dean's program for C/P this year, this is a program that I think didn't improve over the season.

Thanks for posting that clip. I thought it had some better moments than the Worlds performance.

[professordeb]

The real World apparently since most in this thread seem to feel the same way.

Perhaps a better way to phrase that would be it seems to be the majority of posters in this topic feel that way. Just because some of us haven't posted that we disagree with yours (and others) belief that B&K were never more than 3rd or 4th rate skaters doesn't mean we agreed with the assessment.

Speaking only for myself, I just couldn't be bothered to begin another round of arguments on why I would disagree with that statement. Too much argument took place back in the day and I don't want to go down that road again. Just because a number of posters here "seem" to agree with you does not translate to meaning that "most" of the people here - and in the Real World - share your opinion. That's not a presumption or assumption that I would want to make. After all, what you posted is your opinion and as one poster said somewhere on the board - opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and it would seem I don't agree with yours.

[gkelly]

They were mostly a 3rd or 4th place kind of team and that is how they were scored.

Just because some of us haven't posted that we disagree with yours (and others) belief that B&K were never more than 3rd or 4th rate skaters doesn't mean we agreed with the assessment.

Third or fourth place at the world championships is hardly "3rd or 4th rate skaters" in the grand scheme of things. I think you're arguing against a claim that judgejudy27 never made.