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  1. #61

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    Do we know that the mother doesn't take any responsibility? I didn't see the Anderson Cooper video but I did read the article. She certainly isn't quoted as being sorry or taking responsibility for her part but that doesn't mean she doesn't have those feelings or thoughts. The person doing the interviewing and writing the article may have chosen to focus on making Dr. Reker the bad guy and having Kirk and his family be the victims of his horrible game. I am just playing Devil's Advocate here, but it is possible.
    -Brian
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  2. #62

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    Her tone in the interview doesn't sound as though she accepts responsibility.
    I think that she sincerely believes that she was following "expert advice" and that she therefore holds them responsible.

    I'm sure that she is sorrowful/grieving about what happened to her son.
    I only wish that she could bring herself to say that the advice they accepted; and the decisions they made about "treatment" were ill-advised.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    Her tone in the interview doesn't sound as though she accepts responsibility.
    "When I heard my husband's belt lash into my child's back for that hour or two, I thought it was out of love. A 'love lash', if you will."
    It's official. I am madly in love with Meryl Davis.

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    It's a shame that Kirk Murphy seemingly didn't get the "unconditional" love that his sister talks about in the last minute of the interview; and was put into this experiment by his parents.
    Whatever their "good intentions" were; they must accept their share of the responsibility for what happened to their son.
    In the 1970s there was tremendous homophobia and the understanding of homosexuality was severely lacking. It really was seen as an aberration. I remember my own mother, who was in her 50s in the 70s, making fun of gays. And she was not generally a conservative, narrow-minded or bigoted woman.

    There was also a stronger reliance on so-called experts. We are talking about a generation of women who raised their kids according to the guidance and views of Dr. Spock, putting his expertise before their own wisdom and insight as women and mothers.

    So I'm not sure how much blame can be put on the parents. Certainly, the severe beatings constituted terrible abuse. I can believe that the mother at least thought it was the necessary thing to do. Dad probably had serious issues or parenting problems. But many women at the time abdicated to the authority of men. I'm not saying it was right, but it was to a certain extent expected of them.
    Last edited by Japanfan; 06-10-2011 at 09:49 AM.

  5. #65

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    I recognize that; as my early adulthood was in that period.

    I still believe that part of the "wisdom that comes with time and experience" is the ability to admit that not all of the advice parents received, decisions they made; and their actions as a consequence of those decisions were wise ones.

    Mrs, Murphy's tone didn't indicate that she realized/appreciated that.
    Last edited by skatesindreams; 06-10-2011 at 04:00 PM.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    In the 1970s there was tremendous homophobia and the understanding of homosexuality was severely lacking. It really was seen as an aberration. I remember my own mother, who was in her 50s in the 70s, making fun of gays. And she was not generally a conservative, narrow-minded or bigoted woman.

    There was also a stronger reliance on so-called experts. We are talking about a generation of women who raised their kids according to the guidance and views of Dr. Spock, putting his expertise before their own wisdom and insight as women and mothers.

    So I'm not sure how much blame can be put on the parents. Certainly, the severe beatings constituted terrible abuse. I can believe that the mother at least thought it was the necessary thing to do. Dad probably had serious issues or parenting problems. But many women at the time abdicated to the authority of men. I'm not saying it was right, but it was to a certain extent expected of them.
    Mr Antmanb's mother took him to the doctor as a child in the very late 60s/early 70s here in the UK. She asked for the doctor's advice because Mr Antmanb refused to take part in the male sports at primary school and delighted in the "punishment" of having to do the girls classes (needlework and netball). He also liked playing with dolls and prams. The doctor at the time said that it was no big deal and asked her if she would think twice about bringing a daughter in because she played with trucks and wanted to play football. MrAntmanb's mother said that she would not have worried about that and happily got over her concerns.....obviously though Mr Antmanb grew up to be gay so

  7. #67

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    Part 3 of the series of reports is just as appalling.
    The "miracle" is that the young man profiled survived what he was subjected to.
    http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/1...ce/?&hpt=hp_c1

    It focuses on the "Homosexuality as Sin" angle.
    The "therapist" is an "apologist" for Reiters; and continues to cite/praise his methods and results.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    .....obviously though Mr Antmanb grew up to be gay so
    Well done.
    It's official. I am madly in love with Meryl Davis.

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    Part 3 of the series of reports is just as appalling.
    The "miracle" is that the young man profiled survived what he was subjected to.
    http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/1...ce/?&hpt=hp_c1

    It focuses on the "Homosexuality as Sin" angle.
    The "therapist" is an "apologist" for Reiters; and continues to cite/praise his methods and results.
    I watched this interview as well. The "therapist" gave me the creeps. Something about the way he spoke ... I don't know how any parent would trust him with their child. I know that is not very scientific, but I really believe that when you get that kind of alarm bell in your head you should listen to it and investigate further. The way he talked about caring for the child and doing what is best for the child in spite of what the parent asked. I just didn't buy it.

    The man they interviewed who had been through the therapy spoke really well. What a life he has had and he is only 28 years old! He spoke about losing 10 years of his life and he will never get it back.

    It is all so very sad. Humans just keep thinking up new ways to be cruel to each other.
    A good rant is cathartic. Ranting is what keeps me sane. They always come from a different place. Take the prime minister, for example. Sometimes when I rant about him, I am angry; other times, I am just severely annoyed - it's an important distinction. - Rick Mercer

  10. #70

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    It just occurred to me that many people think and talk as if effeminate=gay. There's some correlation, but it's not synonymous. Some of my gay friends are extremely masculine, way more than some of my straight friends.

    As my college human sexuality professor explained it,

    Biological sex = chromosomes and biological sexual features. Usually they are a clear match, but occasionally not due to hormonal abnormalities. There are intersexual people such as XXY. There are also intersexual people who are XX or XY, but somehow the developmental and hormonal systems got confused. For instance, there are XY people with female biological features and display as female in every way except for a lack of uterus and ovaries. They often don't know themselves without a genetic test.

    Gender identity = how you identify yourself relative to socio-biological associations with male and female chromosomes. Most of the time, biological sex is pretty straightforward and, on a population level, leads to physical and/or psychological patterns that influence, are influenced by, and interact with culture and society.

    The interaction of biology and culture is an ongoing process, but each society does have some things it associates with (biological) females, some with males, and some with both.

    Gender identity is how you view yourself relative to these sociocultural associations. Most of the time, biological females tend toward female gender identity, and biological males toward male gender identity, but there are exceptions. A transgender person may be biologically female but identify with male gender associations.

    Gender expression: The degree to which you publicly signal male, female, unisex etc gender associations. Again, most of the time, it maps onto both your biological sex and your gender identity, but not always. A transgender person, for instance, may not publicly signal their gender identity.

    Sexual orientation: The biological sex(es) and/or gender expressions you are sexually attracted to. Some people's sexual orientation is asexual.

    My professor emphasized that other than biological sex, these constructs are often ever-changing continuums. Even biological sex can be an ever-changing continuum due to physical interventions such as hormone injections.
    Last edited by Gazpacho; 06-10-2011 at 07:36 PM.

  11. #71

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    I watched this interview as well. The "therapist" gave me the creeps. Something about the way he spoke ... I don't know how any parent would trust him with their child.
    I had the same reaction to the "therapist".

    Until seeing these reports, I had no idea that there were so many church supported/religion sponsored "therapy centers" devoted to the concept of changing/"healing" someone's sexual preference/identity.

  12. #72
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    Bill Maher mocked one guy who had supposedly been "cured" of homosexuality, in the movie Religulous. He runs some place to help others cure themselves now.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    Certainly, the severe beatings constituted terrible abuse.
    And that's why I think much, if not most, blame can be put on the parents. If you listen to what they were told to do by the program, they were never told to beat their child until welts formed. That was ALL on the father.

    I believe the father used the "advice" of the program -- which his son was in for only 10 months -- to excuse behavior he really wanted to do anyway. These beatings went on for years and the parents never went back to get further advice when they didn't work.

    So to blame what they did on the program is disingenuous at best.
    "Cupcakes are bullshit. And everyone knows it. A cupcake is just a muffin with clown puke topping." -Charlie Brooker

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    And that's why I think much, if not most, blame can be put on the parents. If you listen to what they were told to do by the program, they were never told to beat their child until welts formed. That was ALL on the father.

    I believe the father used the "advice" of the program -- which his son was in for only 10 months -- to excuse behavior he really wanted to do anyway. These beatings went on for years and the parents never went back to get further advice when they didn't work.

    So to blame what they did on the program is disingenuous at best.
    But was the father advised to beat him, or told that beating was an acceptable part of the therapy? If so, who knew where the father will draw the line? If you advocate beating, you invite the unleashing of a beast and there is an excuse in place for abusive behaviour.

    I agree that the father is despicable but as he's dead, we can't hear from me.

    Both the therapy and the physical abuse would have damaged the boy. Ultimately the suicide can't be blamed fully on one or even both, but both certainly could have been contributing factors.

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